What I'd like to see in October

[Acerak]

Sorry I'm posting a new thread, but I can't see my reply in that thread. I believe Pariah is having the same problem, because he's made the last two posts there. (I can't see those, either, but I can put 2 and 2 together with a "Last post by" column as well as the next guy.)

Anyway, here's what I said. Apologies to you if you can see it in the other thread and I'm just repeating myself. (Moderators have my permission to move this post to the longer thread.)

Nice thread, guys. I'm coming here once per week now rather than once or thrice per day. It's good to see this sort of thread. Like John, I'm watching for patterns and good ideas.

Here are the items that, in my opinion, need review in October:

1. The Handicap table
2. The Kicking rules
3. Piling On and Diving Tackle (the "after the roll" clause)
4. Fouling
5. Wild Animal
6. Ageing
7. Casualties
8. Kroxigor
9. Thrudd
10. Miscellaneous

I'll explore each in brief below to give you an idea of what I'd be looking at. Please note that I haven't forgotten about Magic Items, Secret Weapons, Dirty Tricks, or the like for one minute! As experimental rules, however, I don't consider them essential to this list of "must review" items.

1. The Handicap table: This was a good attempt to get the wildness off the cards and safely into the game and into the handicap system. I agree with those who feel it's a bit too varied in its effects, however. I have a pared-down system I'm working on that presents a smaller number of events with a more consistent application. In a nutshell, I'd like to strip this table down to a "Best of the Handicap Table" version and work any worthy omissions into other facets of the game.

2. The Kicking Rules: What's the consensus? Are the rules balanced? (Those who have tried them have liked them.) Can we integrate them in a manner that makes field goals a modular option for leagues? Is Fanatic interested enough to make models for them?

3. Piling On and Diving Tackle: Of all last year's mechanical changes, these two caused the most noise. How have they played out? Should we change the rules? How do they feel? Are they fair, statistically? Are they fun? Are they balanced? Do they make enough sense in terms of both fluff and mechanics? Should these skills work in "before the roll" mode only?

4. Fouling: How has the Eye worked? Is it too strong, or too weak? Are the penalties right? Is Dirty Player overpowered? How much "chaos spikey bit" feel should the core rules have?

5. Wild Animal: Is it unbalanced? If so, can it be fixed? Should it be replaced?

6. Ageing: Is this doing its job? (For comparison, I'd also examine the winnings table, although I consider that particular change too long in coming and have left it off the "must review" list.) Does it need to be made weaker? Stronger? Should niggling injuries be changed?

7. Casualties: How many casualties are being scored per game, on average? Is this enough? Should it be increased? Should you receive fouls for all casualties? Should you receive fouls for all blocking casualties, but not fouls? If those rules change, would the game be negatively impacted?

8. Kroxigor: This chap needs Mighty Blow. That's obvious.

9. Thrudd: He's experimental. Is he balanced? Can we make him official as is, or does he need a tweak or two?

10. Miscellaneous: This would include items like niggling injuries, the Gate, and use of the Apothecary on players pushed into the crowd.

Some of these are rather touchy and complicated. Opinions vary widely. If you don't believe me, run a search on "Wild Animal" or "Piling On" and you'll soon see what I mean.

You'll notice I never once mentioned core mechanics or major rules changes. Those of you who have read my previous posts carefully will not be surprised. The surprised among you should simply pay more attention to what I write rather than what you read.

Cheers!

-Chet

[Ghost of Pariah]

Ah yes! Thank you Chet.
Now copy and paste what i replied and boffo!

This is the first time I've seen any BBRC member mention the passing rules. At any rate my opinions to your questions are...

1. The Handicap table
I think the best solution would be to make this be cut and dry. +/- so many rerolls for so much difference in TR. Take the wacky stuff and make a Random Event table that leagues can use or not.

2. The Kicking rules
I have not played them nor have I even read them. They seem well liked though.

3. Piling On and Diving Tackle (the "after the roll" clause)
This hasn't caused any problems in my league at all. As far as we can tell it makes little difference. If fouling rules changed then it might be a different story.

4. Fouling
Personally I think it's probably just about right. It seems a little soft to me and I wouldn't mind seeing spp's for casualties across the board but I think the best way to see if it's right is to look at it long term. No need to hurry up and make changes yet. I guess the best way to describe my feelings...Close enough.

5. Wild Animal
Don't see a problem. I use a minotaur in my league. He has block and break tackle and he still gets laid out or trapped at least once a game. Don't see the over power in wild animal.

6. Ageing
IMO it's too weak but I don't have enough long term exposure to it to be sure. This is another one that I think can wait.

7. Casualties
See #4. Fouling

8. Kroxigor
Do something so the Lizzy coaches will quit crying!

9. Thrudd
No opinion. He looks fun but he has yet to travel to my part of the Old World.

10. Miscellaneous
I'd like to see secret weapons make a comeback. My league had rules for them long before 4th edition (and so did alot of others I suspect). We miss them terribly!

[DoubleSkulls]

1. The Handicap table: This was a good attempt to get the wildness off the cards and safely into the game and into the handicap system. I agree with those who feel it's a bit too varied in its effects, however. I have a pared-down system I'm working on that presents a smaller number of events with a more consistent application. In a nutshell, I'd like to strip this table down to a "Best of the Handicap Table" version and work any worthy omissions into other facets of the game.

I feel the problem with the handicap table is that there are too many weak results (extra cheerleaders), and some that aren't weak are too random (Iron Man).

2. The Kicking Rules: What's the consensus? Are the rules balanced? (Those who have tried them have liked them.) Can we integrate them in a manner that makes field goals a modular option for leagues? Is Fanatic interested enough to make models for them?

Haven't played them

3. Piling On and Diving Tackle: Of all last year's mechanical changes, these two caused the most noise. How have they played out? Should we change the rules? How do they feel? Are they fair, statistically? Are they fun? Are they balanced? Do they make enough sense in terms of both fluff and mechanics? Should these skills work in "before the roll" mode only?

Before the roll only. Leave a degree of randomness in there.

4. Fouling: How has the Eye worked? Is it too strong, or too weak? Are the penalties right? Is Dirty Player overpowered? How much "chaos spikey bit" feel should the core rules have?

Just a little bit more fouling required. Maybe reduce IGMEOY to 5+, with an extra +1 for DP's.

5. Wild Animal: Is it unbalanced? If so, can it be fixed? Should it be replaced?

Definately unbalanced. Easy fix is to remove compulsory blitz/block, which removes the worst of the liabilities. Its still pretty bad having to go first with a player you can't use TRRs on.

6. Ageing: Is this doing its job? (For comparison, I'd also examine the winnings table, although I consider that particular change too long in coming and have left it off the "must review" list.) Does it need to be made weaker? Stronger? Should niggling injuries be changed?

I feel that the effects are too random - the chances are very small (3+/4+) so that unlucky teams seem to suffer more than developed ones.

7. Casualties: How many casualties are being scored per game, on average? Is this enough? Should it be increased? Should you receive fouls for all casualties? Should you receive fouls for all blocking casualties, but not fouls? If those rules change, would the game be negatively impacted?

We are averaging ~2 cas per team per game. This feels fine.

8. Kroxigor: This chap needs Mighty Blow. That's obvious.

Agreed

9. Thrudd: He's experimental. Is he balanced? Can we make him official as is, or does he need a tweak or two?

Haven't even looked at the rules

10. Miscellaneous: This would include items like niggling injuries, the Gate, and use of the Apothecary on players pushed into the crowd.

Give SPPs if you push someone into the crowd and they get injured.

Maybe make niggles a little worse - roll after each drive sounds fine.

Secret Weapons!

Ian

[Ghost of Pariah]

Wow! You mean people actually think the Wild Animals are under powered? Sheesh! No way!
My mino lead not only my team but my entire league in TD's in his first season. 2nd season he was the 3rd place TD leader (mostly cuz I started using other players on purpose)
I don't see anything wrong them either way.

[Acerak]

Just a note - Secret Weapons, etc., are on the table. But they aren't specifically "October items." We can write those rules any time of the year. We can change the rules only in October. Hence, they'll have priority as the months roll on.

That said, we've had plenty of work on experimental rules lately! Check out the Pick 'N' Mix article in Blood Bowl Magazine 3. Special Plays and Secret Weapons are in the mix. We're also hard at work on Magic Items, Random Events, and Dirty Tricks.

Cheers!

-Chet

[Ghost of Pariah]

As experimental rules go that's great, but it seems like the experimental stuff just gets written up tossed out to us and then forgotten. Heck we can do that! I'm playing 2 leagues that are LRB only. I'd like the rules to be serious.

[Acerak]

As experimental rules go that's great, but it seems like the experimental stuff just gets written up tossed out to us and then forgotten. Heck we can do that! I'm playing 2 leagues that are LRB only. I'd like the rules to be serious.

Beginning last year Fanatic made a commitment to use the House/Experimental/Official hierarchy. As experimental rules are released, they are fed into the October Queue for voting at the next Rules Review.

I understand that you're skeptical because you haven't seen this in action yet. But it's a real process, trust me. As we release more experimental rules in the next year and vote on them over the next several Octobers, you'll see the truth in what I'm saying.

Slated for votes this year:

1. Kicking
2. Thrudd

Already slated for next year:

1. Mixed-Race Teams
2. Khemri Undead
3. Necromantic Undead

More are on the way. Their release dates and the amount of playtesting they get will dictate whether they get fed into the queue for 2002 or 2003.

Cheers!

-Chet

[Ghost of Pariah]

Cool. BTW what did you think of my Mixed Race Teams article in House Rules mag? (egadz have I given away my identity? ssshhh. Don't tell Neo.)

Be honest. I can take it. After all none of those rules were playtested at that time.

[wesleytj]

1. The Handicap table: This was a good attempt to get the wildness off the cards and safely into the game and into the handicap system. I agree with those who feel it's a bit too varied in its effects, however. I have a pared-down system I'm working on that presents a smaller number of events with a more consistent application. In a nutshell, I'd like to strip this table down to a "Best of the Handicap Table" version and work any worthy omissions into other facets of the game.

Yeah, I agree totally. The idea was sound, the application needs work.

2. The Kicking Rules: What's the consensus? Are the rules balanced? (Those who have tried them have liked them.) Can we integrate them in a manner that makes field goals a modular option for leagues? Is Fanatic interested enough to make models for them?

I've stated my opinion on these before. I think they're great as optional rules, and I'm glad people enjoy them. However it makes way too much of an impact of the whole workings of the game to ever be forced on anyone that doesn't want to use them. Making them a semi-official set of house rules, as they are now, is great. Leave them that way.

3. Piling On and Diving Tackle: Of all last year's mechanical changes, these two caused the most noise. How have they played out? Should we change the rules? How do they feel? Are they fair, statistically? Are they fun? Are they balanced? Do they make enough sense in terms of both fluff and mechanics? Should these skills work in "before the roll" mode only?

I've been abundantly clear as well on my opinion of DT. I like it better the way it was, but make it an Agility trait and it will clear up all the abuses of it.

I haven't played with the newest version of Piling On to have a solid opinion about it. I do like an idea you put forth elsewhere about it though, where it's an AV reroll with a +.

4. Fouling: How has the Eye worked? Is it too strong, or too weak? Are the penalties right? Is Dirty Player overpowered? How much "chaos spikey bit" feel should the core rules have?

I actually like the current mutation of igmeoy. It's reasonable. It allows two people who WANT to to have an all out foul war, and it keeps one guy from picking on the other with impunity. It kinda reminds me of real football, it always pays to not retaliate.

OTOH, I do think that Get the Ref is a little too nasty right now. Maybe make it +2 to the igmeoy roll instead of never gets caught. (so they'd always get caught on 6's whether they'd fouled most recently or not)

5. Wild Animal: Is it unbalanced? If so, can it be fixed? Should it be replaced?

I haven't played with the newest version of WA to have a solid opinion about it.

6. Ageing: Is this doing its job? (For comparison, I'd also examine the winnings table, although I consider that particular change too long in coming and have left it off the "must review" list.) Does it need to be made weaker? Stronger? Should niggling injuries be changed?

I think the game was fine without it, and I'd be happy to see it go away. But if you're going to keep it, I also think it should be heavier on downgrades with less nigglers. Getting a skill is supposed to be a happy occasion...not one filled with dread. Great my wardancer is getting dauntless, but now I have to fire him because he's going to miss 1/6th of my games. 1

As far as niggling injuries go, I don't like the expansion of them either. (aka the new serious injury table) The old way worked just fine for hundreds of BB games for me, and if it ain't broke...

I don't think ageing or nigglers add a fun element to the game.

7. Casualties: How many casualties are being scored per game, on average? Is this enough? Should it be increased? Should you receive fouls for all casualties? Should you receive fouls for all blocking casualties, but not fouls? If those rules change, would the game be negatively impacted?

Once again, I've made my opinion on this known elsewhere. All casualties you cause should give you spps. If you fix that and leave everything else alone in this area (fouling, ref, skill mods, etc) I think the balance will be about where it needs to be (maybe a little weak but I also know I'll never win that argument)

8. Kroxigor: This chap needs Mighty Blow. That's obvious.

Whatever.

9. Thrudd: He's experimental. Is he balanced? Can we make him official as is, or does he need a tweak or two?

Whatever. I know I'd never take (freeboot or otherwise) a guy who will play for my opponent half the time. Change him however you want.

10. Miscellaneous: This would include items like niggling injuries, the Gate, and use of the Apothecary on players pushed into the crowd.

Not gate, but related: I think the winnings table should be a little less harsh. I like the idea you're going for, the concept that negative mods should apply to big teams with small gates. However, I think that it's a little too stringent. I also think it should always be at least 0 (you never lose money for playing a game) and you should always get at least 10k if you win. (aka the +1 mod for winning should be applied LAST)

I like that you can't apoth a crowd cas, how could apoth fight thru the crowd to make it there in time when the players can't?

[Haar]

The Kicking Rules: What's the consensus? Are the rules balanced?

I love the kicking rules. They really add a lot to the game, and don't detract all that much. They also seem fairly well balanced (although I haven't played them to death yet).

Piling On and Diving Tackle: Of all last year's mechanical changes, these two caused the most noise.

Piling On is a real powerhouse of a skill (especially when you give it to a Wild Animal). I like the after the roll effect, though, since you're going prone for the effect. Maybe make it worth a smaller bonus (same for diving tackle), or the same and a trait. Having to declare before the roll is too weakening.

Fouling: How has the Eye worked?

There aren't quite enough fouls right now. Perhaps making the Eye 5+ instead of 4+ would do it. I don't know. Dirty player is too strong, +2 on the INJ roll is sick. Then again, they're always the first players to get killed anyway.

Wild Animal: Is it unbalanced? If so, can it be fixed? Should it be replaced?

I think WA kind of stinks at first, but it isn't unbalanced. The Chaos Dwarf coach in my league has a Minotaur with Piling On. He's a monster! He goes down to avoid the WA crunch, and breaks armor, and then uses MB on the INJ roll. So no, I think WA is just right.

Ageing: Is this doing its job? Does it need to be made weaker? Stronger? Should niggling injuries be changed?

Niggles should be a little stronger, IMO. Miss the game on a 1-2 for example. Either that, or make the aging table one higher (4+ 5+ etc).

Thrudd: He's experimental. Is he balanced?

I've never played him. I think I would just get him out there and then start fouling with him to keep him from going to my opponent.

As for miscellaneous, I just want to reiterate my support for the pGFI rules. They really seem to work, and I'd like to see them classed as "experimental" soon enough to get them in next year.

[gallowin]

2. The Kicking Rules: What's the consensus? Are the rules balanced? (Those who have tried them have liked them.) Can we integrate them in a manner that makes field goals a modular option for leagues? Is Fanatic interested enough to make models for them?

We have yet to play with the kicking rules in our league partly due to new players and second cuz I'm not sold on the idea. I feel like they favor fast, agility teams which usually don't have trouble scoring TDs.

There is also the question regarding teams that don't have passers and can't ever get kickers. Does this go against your normal allotment of passers? 0-2 Dwarf Runners... 1 runner & 1 kicker?

[GalakStarscraper]

1. The Handicap table

I live the handicap table ... trim the useless results from it and its good to keep using.

2. The Kicking rules

The kicking rules are great .... add them in.

3. Piling On and Diving Tackle (the "after the roll" clause)

I think both skills are fine with the after the roll mechanics. Leave them as is.

4. Fouling

Fouling is fine.

5. Wild Animal

I personally think that the Wild Animal trait is fine.

6. Ageing

Aging is perfect. Either add +1 to injuries for each Niggle or roll for Niggles at the end of each half to miss the rest of the game ... JKL, you, and I reviewed a lot of teams over 20 games played and we all agreed that if the Niggles actually mattered since 1 game in 6 doesn't matter to anyone ... the aging rules + the cash table would work exactly as desired.

7. Casualties

The MBBL had plenty ... everything seems fine to me.

8. Kroxigor

Of course he gets Mighty Blow.

9. Thrudd

Make him an official star ... what the heck.

10. Miscellaneous

FREE MASTER CHEF as head coach for the HALFINGS!!!!

Galak

[Ghost of Pariah]

Wait a minute Galak, you think everything is fine except that Halflings should get a free wizard? lol Are you drunk?

[Thadrin]

1. The Handicap table

Need beefing up, tweaking, changing...
get rid of the random effects and institute the "snake eye armour roll" mechanism for in-match weirdness!

2. The Kicking rules

I like them, but still thikn every team should have the chance to get a real kicker, and not just the teams with throwers. We went into my view on this when the rules first came out. (DWARF RUNNERS ARE STILL NOT PASSERS)

3. Piling On and Diving Tackle (the "after the roll" clause)

I took POn as one of my advances on one of my Blitzers in Amsterdam simply to try this out. I have to say it seemed fine to me.

4. Fouling

Its fine. Dirty player should be a reroll on the "ref spots" roll though.

5. Wild Animal

Needs a sserious change. The idea Neo and I came up with seems characterful and fun.

6. Ageing

My commish hates it and wants it removed, because one team in our league got hit pretty hard by it early. I disagree. I think its fine, but tweaking the Niggle rules as is being tested wouldn't be a bad idea.

7. Casualties

They're fine.

8. Kroxigor

Mighty Blow. Yadda yadda. This is a nobrainer.

9. Thrudd

Why not? I've not tried him. Maybe when I get my Boris model (10 quid for one fig????)

10. Miscellaneous

Alchemists suck. Gimme a half decent runesmith. There are a couple of ideas out there - someone mentioned some finnish guy came up with a nice idea that appears in BBMag3. Don't have that yet but soon! I humbly propose the idea I put forward months ago.

[Colin]

I have just a quick comment on the kicking rules. I think generally they are fine except for a couple of small things. I think that it is more realistic to use the three middle squares on the board (in the endzone) as the area to kick the field goal through. Seven middle squares is too wide and three squares would correspond to the width of the uprights. I also think that it would make much more sense to have ST used to calculate distance (the kicking distances seem much too short compared to passes anyway), AG for accuracy, ST for range.
Personally it doesn't really matter to me what the BBRC decides, I will use whichever rules I like, change those I don't like. Since it is too far to go to amy official tournaments, I will probably never play in one, so it doesn't really matter what the "officeal" rules are to me.
Just my 2cents worth.