Woody's Sticky FAQ inaccuracies

[Joaquim]

But those big guys star players have skills only applied to Big guys...


Well... I hope anybody clever enough to play BB is also clever enough to not make a big confusion out of this....


- and I guess you would hope that someone playing BB would be able to right proper english, no?!?

[Babs]

Casper,

Actually, you're incorrect on this... would you care to reconsider?

The current rules are okay as far as they go, but putting Big Guys on the Star Player cards was a fudge really, and as time has passed I've become less than happy with using the Star Player cards as a method of getting Big Guys into the game.

Jervis, in the BB Annual p9 (in fact under the Big Guy rules which you so helpfully pointed me to)

Clearly the Star Players are Big Guys.

So while the Star Players don't actually follow the Big Guy Rules, because their Star Player status gives them their own ruleset, they are definately big guys.

You may, however, have a good point about being 'less confusing' if you don't equate the two. Originally I was talking about ways of getting Large blokes on the pitch if you already had two 'Big Guys' on your roster.

[nouge]

In the LRB, Big Guy is a racial characteristic.

The Troll, Rat Ogre, Minotaur, Kroxigor, Ogre and Treeman players all have this characteristic. None of the Star Players do. End of story.

[GalakStarscraper]

I've gotta agree here Babs. You are mudding the water more than cleaning it up.

Galak

[Pink Horror]

Thanks Galak.

Why should we call a player a Big Guy when none of the Big Guy rules apply? That's just confusing.



Pink Horror

[Longshot]

All this is stupid...
Sorry but i dont like star players for this kind of problem.

Well, if they want to save their Star players, The rules should say that it takes the slot of big guys, because too many team are going to be beardie. Even if this is for only one game....
Using team Reroll?=>They are not from this team!!!! so they shouldnt...
But all this is my only one opinion. And that is not because they are star players that they have too be overpowered...

[Babs]

Galak & Co.,

I'm just trying to explain that there is a loophole to the rules - and you can have more than two treemen on your roster for a game!

I'm not imparting judgement on whether it's a good idea or not. It might just be muddying the waters. Irrelevant really, because I'm answering a rules question. It might be the worst rule in the universe, but you can still have more than 1 minotaur on your team at once.

And that's what it's all about. Can you have more than one Ogre? Sure!

If you want to discuss merits of Star Players, Big Guy rules and other scenarios - well fine - but that's another topic entirely isn't it?

I'm stating rules, not advocating said facts. For that kind of debate - head to 'forced pickups'

PS. Of course, if you're interested in those opinions, happy to oblige - it's not about me advocating Star Players Longshot, but showing that the rules allow things. If it's good or bad is another discussion.

[GalakStarscraper]

I guess I need to be more clear when I said you are mudding the waters ... sorry Babs.

What I meant was is that I've never seen anyone on the board really question whether you could have 3 Treeman on the pitch at one time as long as one was Deeproot. I have seen folks ask if they could freeboot a 3rd normal treeman.

See what I meant by mudding is that its seems pretty clear that the Star Player now have no positions or Big Guy status ... which is WONDERFUL. Its solves so MANY problems by just saying this play is this name and plays for this team.

Nothing in the LRB says anything about Deeproot, Morg, Ripper, and Headsplitter being Big Guys ... nor should it. Just like nothing now says that Griff is a Blitzer. This is the way it SHOULD be.

So what I meant by mudding the water is that the LRB is clear you can freeboot players or Stars. The Stars are positionless so as long as you have a free spot on your roster, you can take them. Your posts have been trying to suggest that the Star Players still have positions, ie Deeproot is a Big Guy Star Player .... doing so is adding to the LRB which is definitely confusing the issue when the LRB is so clear. (and no any text in the Annual or any other source beyond the LRB does not count which you have been quoting throughout this thread which is furthering mud stirring ... the LRB is the one source rulebook for BB ... anything else is a supplement ... pure and simple)

The point you are trying to belabor about being able to have an Ogre on your team and then freeboot Morg to get two was fairly common knowledge by a lot of the folks here. Woody's FAQ and Chet's comment were directly related to the a normal 3rd treeman freeboot which was a big question mark item. Bringing Deeproot into the conversation by saying he's a Big Guy when the LRB doesn't even say he is a Treeman and he doesn't have Big Guy racial characteristic is definitely confusing the issue.

Your original post would have been fine if you phrased it as a footnote ... ie:

"While you cannot freeboot a 3rd Treeman if you have two on your roster even if one is missing the game, you could freeboot Deeproot Strongbranch who has stats like a Treeman but since he is a positionless star player doesn't count towards any positional limits on the team as long as you had a free slot on your roster."

This wasn't the spin you went with. Instead of working the Star Players have no positions aspect you tried to suggest that Deeproot is a Big Guy Treeman which is mudding the water to me since nothing in the LRB suggests this at all. The only reason you know this is because of prior knowledge of previous editions. If you take the LRB as is without any past history in your brain, you'd never be making the comments that you have during this post. That's why I said you were mudding the waters.

Galak & Co.,
I'm just trying to explain that there is a loophole to the rules - and you can have more than two treemen on your roster for a game!

Just responding directly to this point to make sure. Its NOT a loophole. Its only a loophole if you declare that Star Player have positions which would be a mistake since the LRB did a great service to BB by fixing this. The only reason you think its a loophole is because you haven't reset what you know about BB when reading the LRB (and yes I realize you helped right the darn thing ... doesn't mean you have the right focus point here). Suggesting that its a loophole is confusing the issue. The LRB doesn't say Deeproot is a Treeman ... he has stats like a Treeman so he probably is one, but I don't see any reason to worry about it. Deeproot is a Star Player (that's his position) ... he plays for Wood Elves and Halflings ... this is all the information I need and all the information that should be provided to keep the Star Players clear and simple to understand ... reading the LRB as is this is the exactly the information I'm provided ... ie the LRB is fine on this subject.

And trust me I know I can have 2 Trees and Deeproot. This combo showed up for my game against Darkson. He finished the game with half his team able to take the pitch. Most the folks here seem geared into this trick as well.

Galak

[Casper]

wow a long post
But it's well written, Galak, and I'm with you all the way. If I was as fluent in English I might had put it something like that.

[Babs]

The whole point of the original point was to just point out a footnote Galak.

I was siomply trying to state that you can freeboot extra ogres and co as long as they're Stars. It was all about the footnote.

But if I'd called the tread 'Woody's missing a footnote to a minor question' then noone's going to look at the tread are they?

The point about whether Deeproot is a Big Guy or not is really a technical discussion which has no real relevance. I was simply backing up my previous statements than it being my main argument's thrust.

The issue which has really emerged is about whether it is more cinsistent to have some Treemen which are 'big guys' and have others which aren't (even though they are stronger and tougher than the 'big guys'), or whether it's more consistent to have all of them Big Guys - but some ignore the rules for Big Guys and follow Star Player rules.


One other thing:

...you tried to suggest that Deeproot is a Big Guy Treeman which is mudding the water to me since nothing in the LRB suggests this at all. The only reason you know this is because of prior knowledge of previous editions.

Actually there is a lot which does suggest this in the BB annual & LRB. The quote from the annual tells you this. In case you missed it first time around here it is again.

The current rules are okay as far as they go, but putting Big Guys on the Star Player cards was a fudge really, and as time has passed I've become less than happy with using the Star Player cards as a method of getting Big Guys into the game.

At the end of the day, however, we are quibbling over a term and we agree on the rules. I was only ever about the fotnote. The 'is he a big guy or not' thing is only because of the wording of the original question/answer.

So I'm all for the footnote in the FAQ. Wording it any other way than a additional note would be misreading the question as it is worded. However a slightly different question 'Can I have more than 2 ogres....' would be another ballgame.

And, off the record, I think that I would probably personally be happier if there wasn't need for the footnote. I'd rather close up the 'loophole' (and I'm calling it that despite what you say ) by making Star Player 'Big Guys' take up position slots. I think it's unbalancing even for the single game (after being involved in a league with extensive uses of star freeboters in the finals). But on the other hand, they are more expensive than hiring a wizard, which is also unbalancing....

[GalakStarscraper]

And, off the record, I think that I would probably personally be happier if there wasn't need for the footnote. I'd rather close up the 'loophole' (and I'm calling it that despite what you say ) by making Star Player 'Big Guys' take up position slots.

This explains a lot where you are coming from. Personally I think it would be a mistake to make the Stars be anything other than postionless. I really don't want to ever see in the LRB that Griff is a Blitzer or that Morg is Big Guy Ogre. Reasons discussed above ... we will agree to disagree on this point.

I think it's unbalancing even for the single game (after being involved in a league with extensive uses of star freeboters in the finals). But on the other hand, they are more expensive than hiring a wizard, which is also unbalancing....

If they had the cash more power to them. The MBBL teams didn't have any extra money to freeboot stars during the finals for the end of the first Season ... so as of yet, no one in the MBBL has freebooted a star player. I think if you saved up 90k to freeboot Morg that you can get 2 Ogres for that one game. Its a lot of cash to flush and cash isn't into easy to come by quantities any more.

However a slightly different question 'Can I have more than 2 ogres....' would be another ballgame.

Ah on this we will agree ... but it wasn't the question which was why I thought your spin on this discussion was confusing.

Actually there is a lot which does suggest this in the BB annual & LRB. The quote from the annual tells you this. In case you missed it first time around here it is again.

Ah, but the Annual doesn't count in my opinion. Great pains have been made to make a one source rulebook for the game, and that's the only book that should be used in rules discussion ... BB would do well to maintain the LRB as a sole source for everything ... no more it was in WD 182 type answers to questions should ever occur again. Nothing in the LRB says anything about Morg, Deeproot, and co. being Big Guys unless I missed it. They are simply names of stars that play for these teams (oh and they have stats like some of the Big Guy types).

Galak

[Babs]

Galak,

Until I get my all-in-one handbook in mass produced hard print, I'm going by the annual.

Jervis' .sig file for many years went "It ain't official until it's in print". Going by that motto, although I have the all in one Handbook .pdf files, I'll be quoting the Annual as the official source until I get my hard copy.

This explains a lot where you are coming from. Personally I think it would be a mistake to make the Stars be anything other than postionless.

Do you really think it makes more sense to have some ogres as big guys and others not?

This to me is just as confusing if not more so.


I'm glad you agree that it would have been a completely different ballgame if they had asked about extra ogres. But if you look at the _intent_ of the original question - that is exactly what they were asking. They were saying - 'can I get more ogres?' Sure they were asking about non-star ones, but that's why the answer needed the footnote.

So I guess we disagree on the most 'official' source. If you want me to find stuff in the most recent version on Stars being Big Guys....

‘Big Guys’ is the name given to a group of players who are, well, big! The Old World is home to a number of prodigiously tall and strong races, and this being the case it wasn’t long before an enterprising coach named Arnie Grumann decided that one of these creatures was just what his team needed to win the championships. He managed to convince Ogre mercenary Norg I’Mgung to play for his team, and although Arnie’s team never won a championship, the popularity of Norg with the fans and the terror he inspired in opposing players meant that soon Big Guys were playing on a regular basis in teams all over the Old World. Therefore, Big Guys are now included in the game as ‘normal’ players. All of the rules that apply to other players apply to Big Guys also, except where specifically modified in the Big Guy rules that follow. The characteristics, skills and traits of Big Guy players are included on the Big Guy player lists below. Note that you can still use the Big Guy star players in games if you wish. However
they must be used as freebooters for one game only, just like any other star player.

That's p 25 right there, under the heading 'Big Guys'

Have I convinced you yet??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

That's from the yet to arrive all in one rulebook - printed which you can see Andy Hall reading on the www.bloodbowl.com website.

So Galak, I'm not agreeing to disagree because you're clearly wrong. Sorry to word it like that, but the rulebooks clearly don't support your stance.

[GalakStarscraper]

I find it interesting that you don't consider the online PDF rulebook "official" .... very interesting from a BBRC member, but that's another topic.

I missed the single reference on page 25 to Big Guy Star Players, so I will readily conceed that they are referenced once as such in the LRB. (I think that's a mistake as we disagree on what is more confusing to a BB player).

So I'll admit I'm wrong that the LRB doesn't reference Big Guy Star Players anywhere. Not the first sentence I've missed ... won't be the last.

No need to talk down to me, by the way. I'm more than signficantly aware about the LRB and its print schedule to real paper. I would suggest however that even JJ would consider the PDF LRB as the rules being "in print". I never heard anyone suggest otherwise ... very interest "spin" as we say in the States, but again that another topic altogether.

Galak

[Ancalagon]

I think I have headache after reading all this post... at the end... what's the conclusion?

[GalakStarscraper]

Sorry Ana:

Conclusion=

You cannot freeboot a 3rd rookie Big Guy Ogre to a Goblin or Halfling team even if one of the Ogres is missing the game due to injury.

If you have an empty slot on your roster, you can always freeboot Morg for a Goblin team regardless of your current team composition.

Galak