general conclusion= Big guys+Piling On=Unbalanced

[Mirascael]

And, as I've said in another post, the Norse suck enough without nerfing piling on!

Especially if you don't know how to play them!

[Munkey]

Zombie: You are right of course I hadn't considered the chance of piling on when armour was already broken. This does make the skill not as bad as I had first thought.

This does not completely remove the problem though, part of the problem is arising out of the new availability of ST 5 players (Big Guys, Khemri, Ogre team) in 3ed that can gain this skill.

Even without MB the have a significant advantage in breaking armour and causing cas over a ST 4 player. For example quoting Boss against AV 8 a strength 4 player fails to break armour only 16.67% of the time against only 8.33% for a ST 5.

This means that the number of failed armour breaks is halved by having ST 5. A high availability of ST 5 players on say the Khemri team could make this devastating.

Remember this will nearly always cause a stun allowing the player plenty of time to recover from the PO and position himself to try again, if it's a KO or better then on to the next victim.

[Munkey]

And, as I've said in another post, the Norse suck enough without nerfing piling on!

But if we followed Dragoonkin's suggestion then PO would be changed without affecting the Norse team unless you have a blitzer with +ST!

[Dragoonkin]

Scary to see someone taking a suggestion of mine to heart.

[gken1]

i think divide by 2 and declare before block. A st 5 guy should have a better chance tahn a st3 or 4 guy. +2 on Armor roll is still better than nothing and better than mighty blow. Yes this makes it not as attractable than claw but it should be that way because claw requires DOUBLES and is only available to a couple of teams.

[Zombie]

Zombie ... this is quite inaccurate. Your chance to break AV 7 (without MB, claws, Piling on or anything like that) [...]

Actually, read my post above one more time. I was talking about a ST5 guy with piling on and mighty blow (i.e. any big guy taking piling on). My numbers in my second post are quite right, i'm sure.

They include the following cases:
Does pass armour either way (piling on needlessly)
Would pass armour anyway without even using mighty blow (piling on needlessly)
Would pass armour anyway if using mighty blow, and mighty blow would have been no use on injury (piling on needlessly)
Would pas armour anyway if using mighty blow, and mighty blow would have been useful on injury (piling on was somewhat useful)
Would not pass armour without piling on, even if using mighty blow (piling on somewhat useful)

Run it through, you'll see that my totals of 56.5% and 43.5% hold true.

[neoliminal]

Since this. The BBRC have already told Galak that this is how it's gonna go in November

We did?

[Zombie]

Here are some numbers i crunched a couple months ago. Some of you might find them interesting. One of the things they show is that piling on, contrary to my former belief, is not that good of a skill compared to mighty blow or pro. Note that i play with piling on declared before the roll, and this is reflected in these numbers. So here goes...

On a 2-die block by a player with Block against an opponent with Block (the most common case), here are the chances of the given skill either helping or making matters worse (it’s assumed that Pro isn’t used on double skulls, but a team reroll is used instead).

Code: Select all

Skill         Attacker   Vict  Helping              Making things worse 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro           Anyone     Any   11.6%   (1 in 8.6)   0.6%   (1 in 173) 
Mighty blow   Nothing    AV9   9%      (1 in 11.1)  0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   Nothing    AV8   12.3%   (1 in 8.1)   0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   Nothing    AV7   16.1%   (1 in 6.2)   0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   Pro        AV9   10.8%   (1 in 9.3)   0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   Pro        AV8   14.8%   (1 in 6.7)   0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   Pro        AV7   19.4%   (1 in 5.2)   0%     (0 in ~) 
Pro + MB      Nothing    AV9   20.6%   (1 in 4.9)   0.6%   (1 in 173) 
Pro + MB      Nothing    AV8   23.9%   (1 in 4.2)   0.6%   (1 in 173) 
Pro + MB      Nothing    AV7   27.7%   (1 in 3.6)   0.6%   (1 in 173) 
Piling on     ST5        AV9   38%     (1 in 2.6)   19%    (1 in 5.3) 
Piling on     ST5        AV8   36.5%   (1 in 2.7)   20.6%  (1 in 4.9) 
Piling on     ST5        AV7   31.8%   (1 in 3.1)   25.4%  (1 in 3.9) 
Piling on     ST4        AV9   31.8%   (1 in 3.1)   25.4%  (1 in 3.9) 
Piling on     ST4        AV8   31.8%   (1 in 3.1)   25.4%  (1 in 3.9) 
Piling on     ST4        AV7   28.6%   (1 in 3.5)   28.6%  (1 in 3.5) 
Piling on     ST3        AV9   23.7%   (1 in 4.2)   33.3%  (1 in 3) 
Piling on     ST3        AV8   25.4%   (1 in 3.9)   31.8%  (1 in 3.1) 
Piling on     ST3        AV7   23.7%   (1 in 4.2)   33.3%  (1 in 3) 
PO + MB       ST5        AV9   40.7%   (1 in 2.4)   16.3%  (1 in 6.1) 
PO + MB       ST5        AV8   40.9%   (1 in 2.4)   16.2%  (1 in 6.1) 
PO + MB       ST5        AV7   38.3%   (1 in 2.6)   18.8%  (1 in 5.4) 
PO + MB       ST4        AV9   34.3%   (1 in 2.9)   22.7%  (1 in 4.4) 
PO + MB       ST4        AV8   36.2%   (1 in 2.7)   21%    (1 in 4.8) 
PO + MB       ST4        AV7   35.2%   (1 in 2.8)   21.9%  (1 in 4.6) 
PO + MB       ST3        AV9   26.4%   (1 in 3.8)   30.6%  (1 in 3.3) 
PO + MB       ST3        AV8   29.8%   (1 in 3.4)   27.3%  (1 in 3.7) 
PO + MB       ST3        AV7   30.4%   (1 in 3.3)   26.7%  (1 in 3.7) 
Piling on     ST5 + MB   AV9   33.5%   (1 in 3)     23.6%  (1 in 4.3) 
Piling on     ST5 + MB   AV8   30.7%   (1 in 3.2)   26.3%  (1 in 3.8) 
Piling on     ST5 + MB   AV7   24.9%   (1 in 4)     32.3%  (1 in 3.1) 
Piling on     ST4 + MB   AV9   27.1%   (1 in 3.7)   29.9%  (1 in 3.3) 
Piling on     ST4 + MB   AV8   26%     (1 in 3.9)   31.1%  (1 in 3.2) 
Piling on     ST4 + MB   AV7   21.7%   (1 in 4.6)   35.5%  (1 in 2.8) 
Piling on     ST3 + MB   AV9   19.2%   (1 in 5.3)   37.9%  (1 in 2.6) 
Piling on     ST3 + MB   AV8   19.6%   (1 in 5.1)   37.4%  (1 in 2.6) 
Piling on     ST3 + MB   AV7   17%     (1 in 5.9)   40.2%  (1 in 2.5) 
Mighty blow   ST4 + PO   AV9   11.4%   (1 in 8.8)   0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   ST4 + PO   AV8   13.3%   (1 in 7.6)   0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   ST4 + PO   AV7   14.5%   (1 in 6.9)   0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   ST3 + PO   AV9   9.3%    (1 in 10.8)  0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   ST3 + PO   AV8   11.4%   (1 in 8.8)   0%     (0 in ~) 
Mighty blow   ST3 + PO   AV7   13.3%   (1 in 7.6)   0%     (0 in ~)

[formatted by jkl]

Piling on is worth it for ST5 and ST4 guys, but not for ST3.
Pro is better than Mighty blow against AV9.
Pro + Mighty blow kicks ass.

Sorry that this came out all wrong, it was typed in Word and didn't convert very well. The weird symbol is how the infinity symbol got translated in the conversion between formats.

[neoliminal]

There are several revisions for PO on the table. It's clearly a problem skill. The studio league is trying out a version that simply gives you an armour RR (for placing your player prone). This seems like a good solution and removes "size" from the entire problem. Chet's league is testing a slightly more complicated version in which you may be thrown out of the game for PO, but gives it a slightly higher chance of success.

[Zombie]

Since this. The BBRC have already told Galak that this is how it's gonna go in November

We did?

At least, that's what Galak told us. Or maybe he wasn't supposed to? If i remember correctly, he said he got that word from a couple of you guys, not just one of you.

[Zombie]

+2 on Armor roll is still better than nothing and better than mighty blow.

Wrong. Even if we discard for a moment the fact that the player has to go down (let's say, even if he didn't), mighty blow would still be better than +2 on injury. Since you do stats for a living, you can tell that mighty blow is nearly as good as it was before, when it was +1 on both armour and injury. Against all but AV9 and AV10 players, +1 on injury is better than +1 on armour (at least when considering the increase in CAS, or even moreso the increase in KO). That makes +1 on armour or injury slightly better than +2 on armour. Now considering the fact that the player goes prone, it's no contest at all. This would make the skill completely useless for all but ST5 players.

[Zombie]

Neo, if indeed your mind is not yet set on what to do with the skill, and considering the results of the poll linked above, which are overwelmingly in favor of the declare before solution, that would give a lot of credit to people who claim that you guys just don't listen to the coaches at all.

[Dragoonkin]

Except that TBB isn't nearly all the BB coaches in the world. And we really shouldn't pretend it is.

[neoliminal]

Neo, if indeed your mind is not yet set on what to do with the skill, and considering the results of the poll linked above, which are overwelmingly in favor of the declare before solution, that would give a lot of credit to people who claim that you guys just don't listen to the coaches at all.

My mind is not decided. I do like the aethetics of declairing the use of PO before gaining any effects, but there is something compelling about laying down for an armour RR.

[Grumbledook]

i like that armour rr version, that wasn't an option in the poll was it?