Phoenix Warriors - the 'forgotten' High Elf

[Zombie]

I have no problem with those statements Cervidal. Well, maybe with the first one. Humans have a better hitting game than high elves with the starting 1000k if they take no catchers, because their players are cheaper and they can have 4 blitzers.

But i don't believe in developing a defensive thrower until you have a good offensive one. It's not like throwers are your main weapon on the defensive anyway. Until i get a really good defensive thrower, i just leave them on the bench when i'm on defense, to keep them safe and ready for when i need them most (offense). Catchers and blitzers, on the other hand, make for great defensive tools and should be developped accordingly.

[Cervidal]

There is no real defensive player to start on a HE team. I think that's the point I've been neglecting to mention. EVERY player on a HE team has the potential to be anything you can imagine because of the basic samenes of their key stats, ST and AG.

The reason Phoenix Warriors make sense, to me, as defensive players is because a coach's throwers rarely advance past midfield. They usually pick up the ball, hurl it downfield, and then stay on their side of the pitch as last ditch defense.

As has been pointed out in this thread, Phoenix Warriors are just Linemen with Pass for a mere 10k more.

Also... making both of your throwers defensive makes sense even on an offensive level. Sure Hands, Block, and Dodge on one of these guys suddenly means you have someone you can use to snag a ball and run a loose cage. Having a Phoenix Warrior like this helps you feel a lot more confident in the event that your cage breaks down.

It all comes down to playing style, Z. I'm pretty conservative. Running the ball leads to fewer turnover oppertunities, as opposed to throwing it where someone could intercept. Once a team is developed (ie, I don't need 5-6 throwing SPPs per game anymore) I generally only pass if it means a touchdown that very same turn. I'd much rather hold the ball and hide behind a quartet of other elves until it's a safe throw.

[DoubleSkulls]

1. Defensive Passer - Block, Dodge and Strip Ball. If I can get him through defensively at the ball carrier, he has a good chance of either applying pressure, or actually getting the ball in the backfield.

2. Defensive Safety - Dodge, Pass Block, Catch. Whilst in my own backfield as defensive safety, if the opposition tries to throw the pass themselves, hopefully he canmove to an intercept position and with catch, he can re-roll the intercept.

IMO neither of these are good uses of a Phoenix warrior.

#1 You can't blitz and pass in the same action so the strip ball is a bit superfluous. Dragon Warriors are much better at this than PWs. A better role is to get in, pick up the ball and pass it out - so dodge, S Hands and NoS/Accurate.

#2 This position is much better suited to the Lion Warrior who already has Catch and would probably want dodge as a skill too. As you can have 4 LW's its not too hard to make a couple of them interceptors.

Ian

[Remco]

I agree with Ian here. You only need two offensive LW, so make the other 2 your defensive specialists. With catch, they already have a decent chance of intercepting a ball. Give them block and dodge, and they will get to the ball carrier anytime. Their extra movement (8 against 6 for a PW) helps them get where the ball is. Even more, when they get the ball in a blitz they can get out the action much better than a PW. Give one strip ball and one pass block, or hope for an AG upgrade to make that interception.

bradw71: don't give your DW leap unless he has AG5. Give him strip ball instead to get the ball loose.

[bradw71]

OK, I've heard this a few times now...

Why do you not give a player Leap unless they have AG5? I understand obviously it's a 2+ rather than a 3+ for the leap itself...maybe it's just me, but the advances don't come as fast as I would like, and I also don't seem to roll a hell of a lot of 11's (or 10's, 12's or double's for that matter...).

So if I wait for that, it may never happen. And I can't help but think, especially in a league dominated by strength teams, that it would be REAL nice to be able to get past the LOS and put some pressure on the ball carrier.

So maybe I should post this as a different topic, but I would like to know people's thoughts...

[DoubleSkulls]

Why do you not give a player Leap unless they have AG5? I understand obviously it's a 2+ rather than a 3+ for the leap itself...maybe it's just me, but the advances don't come as fast as I would like, and I also don't seem to roll a hell of a lot of 11's (or 10's, 12's or double's for that matter...).

Well one reason is that most Elven teams don't have that many TRR's. So leaping all the time tends to take them away.

You should have too much difficultly getting past a LoS - you have the agility to move players around to blitz a hole and get players though.

Ian

[Longshot]

Remnber this elfic sentence:

When the pass goes well
Opponent are kicked in Hell.

I think that is a good thing to know how i play HE.

[Korhil]

Elves are designed to play a passing game, if you want to play a running game, play a different team.

Phoenix Warriors should be developed to throw a 3+ Long Bomp/2+ Long Pass and have Safe Throw.

I dunno what kind of opposition some of you must play against, but at high TR if you dont have a decent passing game then you will simply lose games.

Most of your Offensive TD's will be from a 2+ Long Pass, simply because doing that will be the safest way to get it since it allows keeping the Ball so deep and out of range of everyone else.

---Korhil

http://fumbbl.no-ip.org/league/teams/DragonPrinces.html

[Deathwing]

Agree with the comments above re: LW's being far superior defensive players.

One thing I would add however:

As has been pointed out in this thread, Phoenix Warriors are just Linemen with Pass for a mere 10k more.

...and access to Passing skills!
All your players can take General and Agility increases, only 2 can take Passing Skills, so it doesn't make any sense to me to be giving general/agility (defensive) skills to a PW. What can he do that a lineman can't on defence? As opposed to offence? I think the answers are very little and quite a lot respectively.

[SuM]

I say make them tougher!!!!!

With the HE's Agility: Throwing, Catching, well pretty much every action requires an Agility Roll...
It's awesome to see a High Elf Player dodging thru other player's tackle zone with almost god-like ease.

If a HE team player is allowed to BREAK AWAY from the pack, and a HE thrower has LOS....you can almost count on a touchdown!!!

Yeah Yeah, Scoring Touchdowns wins games, but if you play against Bruizer teams, who don't give a "Rat's Arse", if they ever score a Touchdown, and is just happy killing and beating down other teams...
If you can't field enough players to continue, you might have scored 5 Touchdowns. but only have 2 healthy players the Bruizer team still wins!!!




I say make the HEs tougher!!!!

[DoubleSkulls]

If you can't field enough players to continue, you might have scored 5 Touchdowns. but only have 2 healthy players the Bruizer team still wins

calm down, no need to shout.

That's a house rule.

You don't have to concede when you can't field 3 players - so you'd still win.

IMO playing against murder teams is dull. It just isn't interesting watching your team get mashed but some muppet without any idea about how to actually score - and lets face it, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to do the team development either.

Ian

[stone]

I don't usually play with HE-team, but I play a lot against them. And the most valuable asset of a HE-team of a friend of mine is a good PW. Actually in previous leagues he had a PW that had just everything (starting with ag5) and over 400 completed passes. Not my favorite player (I usually play Orcs).

Well, the point being that a PW is very valuable plalyer for a HE team with access to passing skills. I think for the offensive (first) PW I would prefer Sure Hands, Accurate and Safe Throw in that order.

For the defensive PW I would prefer Sure Hands, Dodge and Block.

[Valen]

I have played high elves for as long as I can remeber, and had alot of sucess with them, and I really can't understand all these posts about turning one of your PW's into a defensive player, to me this idea is completley ludicrous . Apart from NofS and Sure Hands (and posibly Dodge), I would never even contemplate giving them anything other than passing skills. I don't even take the +1 ST on double 6 (I will take critisim on this as I can see the arguments for here).

When a team has 6 players (4 LW's & 2 DW's) who can be easily developed into defensive players, why risk not turning both your PW's into 3+ long bombers (Accurate & Strong Arm) . Add any combination of Safe Throw, NofS, Dump Off, etc and you have two great passers.

I also always have both players on the pitch at all times, the only positional players I leave of the pitch with HE's are two LW's, usually because two are offensive and two deffensive (although sometimes I do throw on all 4 just really confuse my opponent).

I suggest people start using these players for what they are made for,,,,,, PASSING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But thats just my opinion!

[SuM]

If you can't field enough players to continue, you might have scored 5 Touchdowns. but only have 2 healthy players the Bruizer team still wins

calm down, no need to shout.

That's a house rule.

You don't have to concede when you can't field 3 players - so you'd still win.

IMO playing against murder teams is dull. It just isn't interesting watching your team get mashed but some muppet without any idea about how to actually score - and lets face it, you don't need to be a brain surgeon to do the team development either.

Ian

I wasn't really yelling, sorry...
I just have a habit of over expressing myself...

I have a dot problem... and a Exclamation problem, when typing fast...
Then adding the BB Codes to my post really make it seem worse then it really is...

[DoubleSkulls]

I don't even take the +1 ST on double 6 (I will take critisim on this as I can see the arguments for here).

But thats just my opinion!

Your choice, but not one I'd make.

One of the things I like about PW's is that they are just as good as a line elf - same stat line - so can mix it up quite happily. S4 makes them so much better at this.

Ian