Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

[macabeo]

Dodge leap sidestep would seem a better Wd fluff wise for me. You know, more... Dancery

I like the SS/Dodge/Leap wardancer, and the lonerless trolls on the goblin roster. Both very elegant solutions.

I agree that SS/Dodge/Leap is the best skill combo fluff-wise, but that may not be a nerf at all. It allows WDs to pick Wrestle (an already popular skill for ball-hunting WDs along with Strip Ball) avoiding overlap with Block while getting a powerful skill like SS i.e. at 16 SPP it could have Wrestle, Dodge, Leap, Strip Ball and SS. It is also the blitzer of the team, I'd rather keep Block instead of Dodge for consistency, but with SS instead of Dodge it would look a bit too much like the Pro Elf Blitzer. I'd still trade Dodge for Fend, Shadowing or Jump Up (my 2 cents).

Hi Harroguk,
I hadn't seen that yet. Thanks. Surely a review to be proud of. In fact all the Ogre coaches that I've talked to have been quite positive.
So ogres are set in Stone for 2013 (and beyond)
Cheers
Martin

No hope for a MA5 Sure Feet snotling for fluff?

[kerrygray8]

+1 for Loner-less Trolls

As it stands, I keep forgetting which Big Guys have Loner and which don't when I play Goblins / Halflings / Ogres...... (although, fairly easy to remember with my Ogre-less Ogre team.....).

[plasmoid]

Hi all... finally
Thanks for your feedback, and sorry for the delay.
I'd also like to apologize for not making it clear that I'm not really looking for brand new ideas, but rather for feedback on the 8 team changes that are still under consideration. So it's not that I don't like some of the new stuff - it's just that that is not really what I'm trying to do with NTBB, not to mention the fact that I'm working towards stability - not towards fresh cans of worms

Wood Elfs
I'm glad to see the new versions of the wardancer getting some approval. I agree that SS/Dodge/Leap is stronger than Fend/Dodge/leap - and seems to be the slight favourite in this miniature sample.

@Macabeo - I think the SS version would be a nerf. It still pushes Strip Ball down the development curve. And while Wrestle does bring some of the ball-popping power, it simple isn't as good in the very early stages.
If someone did go with Fend as first pick, then he'd still have a real cage threat. Just not nearly as big. And on the other hand it would be annoying to not be able to properly use both down on blocks and blitzes (as he hasn't added Wrestle on top of Block). Not to mention that Block players could now target him, putting him down for either lost mobility or straight fouling.

I do believe that with the BBRC instituted nerf to the Catchers, they team may be in need of less of a nerf than the one I first brought to bear. SS/Leap/Dodge could be a much slighter nerf, and maybe a better fit. Of the "tier 0" teams I think wood elfs currently (2012) got the worst deal.

Ogres
As stated above, I'm very happy with the ogre team, and feedback has been very good.
So I'm not looking for any further changes.
@Macabeo - I do see what you're getting at with the snots. But I prefer MA6 over Sure Feet because:
a) The player already has a lot of skills, and a prefer a less cluttered statline.
b) In 2nd ed. a snotling in the open was actually as fast as a human lineman (3+3 vs 4+2) - so now that that subtle difference is impossible to portray, I don't think that the identical "top speed" is too far fetched.

Gobbos
As stated - any change to the gobbo statline is dead due to spill-over.
But I'm very happy that the lonerless trolls idea has gotten such good reception.
Ofcourse now it remains to be considered whether there should be 2 or 3 lonerless trolls!

I'm leaning towards 3 - because I figure just the 2 lonerless trolls would be too small a boost (because the other gobbo buff - new SG - only really comes into play in mid-late play).

Undead
As stated - if the Mummies are too good, I'll cut G-access.
@Shteve0: I have no problem with it being a buff long term, as undead coaches inform me that team performance drops sharply as TV increases. But I don't want it to be a short term buff. So that's what I'm keeping an eye on.

Amazons
@Shteve0: I know you won't relent.
But for now, I'm satisfied that I've been getting a lot more positive feedback than negative on these.
So for me the clincher will not be whether you like them or not (sorry ), but whether the nerf is too harsh. If it is, then I'm quite attracted to a 60K (A) linegirl solution.

I do think that by playing them like the non-NTBB version, you'd be doing them a disservice. If I was coaching the NTBB gals, I'd probably only double up block on one of the Blitzers (a hitter). On the other hitter I'd just go with Frenzy. I don't normally go with more than 2 hitters on an amazon side, so I think the loss is not big. As the team develops, linechicks with Block will be doing a lot of the blocking anyway - apart from that done by your actual hitters - while I suspect your other 2 blitzers will have other duties than MB-blocking.

I think what is awesome about the development potential of the NTBB amazon side, is rolling out the full bag of A-skills, that all the elf sides can't really do, because they lack block for starters and are also fighting the TV-cap.

An amazon team stuffed with blodge/SS and some jump up would be a truly unique and terrifying team to face.
IMO. Naturally

---
Piling On (Macabeo):
As I've reached consensus with Galak and Doubleskulls on this one, it is not going to change on a whim. I do quite likeyour ST idea - but I also think the ripple effect could be massive. Too big to foresee.
I disagree that the new version is "more no brainer than ever" since it already did what the nerfed version does. Plus some more. It does not combo as well into CPOMB, because Claw was also nerfed. In effect it roughly knocks 20% off, the power of CPOMB, and I think that walks the fine line between those who think that CPOMB is broken, and those who think it is not.
Also - next time someone removes one of your players from the pitch be rerolling the armor roll - think of me

SG and +1 to fouling (Macabeo):
It is true that mobile teams will be better at positioning for this. On the other hand, these teams are also (IMO) more likely to be subjected to player removal - including fouling - so I think it evens out.

I do profoundly disagree that new SG will just make gobbo coaches employ all their weapons at once. At the very least they'll have to consider keeping some in reserve, because getting up to 3 players sent off means you're not likely to get them all back for the next drive - and you certainly don't know which ones you'll be getting. If you love your B&C for defense, it is risky to use it on offense. And on the plus side, many a gobbo coach has been subjected to an 8 turn stomp, costing them so many players that they are forced to field their weapons on their own 'dead' 1-turn-drive. Getting some of them back for the 2nd half is surely a merciful thing

Cheers all,
Martin

PS - Macabeo,
I'm glad you like so many things about NTBB. You're welcome to join the play be email NTBB league that opens in december. Heck, you all are

[plasmoid]

First post updated.

[Shteve0]

I do think that by playing them like the non-NTBB version, you'd be doing them a disservice. If I was coaching the NTBB gals, I'd probably only double up block on one of the Blitzers (a hitter). On the other hitter I'd just go with Frenzy. I don't normally go with more than 2 hitters on an amazon side, so I think the loss is not big. As the team develops, linechicks with Block will be doing a lot of the blocking anyway - apart from that done by your actual hitters - while I suspect your other 2 blitzers will have other duties than MB-blocking.

Yep, ok. I always thought the intention here was to preserve team identity and style, but no biggie.

My biggest complaint with wrestle blitzers is not the loss of hitters, it's the reduction in effectiveness of guarders. Amazons lack for all four of speed, AG, armour and ST. A bunch of guard standfirm blodgers to slap in the mix when the going gets tough enables you to clear out small pockets of the pitch, ither so you can lock it back in elsewhere or move your cage up a notch. Your opponent normally needs an open pow to clear that guard, and if you're lucky, you have three or four of them. So yeah, I think it's a long term nerf... As you say, I hit with a linewomen anyway. Wrestle seems fine short term to me. And that strikes me as being the opposite of what you were after.

I'll let you know on Undead in the coming months. I'm on six skills after three games (though targetted MVPs are responsible for half of those) and Grab has been a revelation. There's a long way to go yet, but with three wins on the board out of three they don't feel like a particularly weak starting build! Still, time will tell

Cheers!

S

[MattDakka]

In my opinion 2 lonerless Trolls should be right for Goblins.
New Sneaky Git is another little-big boost.
Three lonerless Trolls seem excessive, to the point that Goblins would be less interesting to play for me.
After all, Trolls don't take roots, have MA 4 (so, unless Treemen, they can cover a quite large area of the pitch), and regenerate.

[mattwhile]

In my opinion 2 lonerless Trolls should be right for Goblins.

Agreed. As someone playing in the Daventry league who considered putting Gobbos in this season, this would have made it a much harder decision.

[plasmoid]

Hi Matt & Matt - duly noted.
I'm all for a solution with just 2 trolls, since I'm not really happy about the need for that extra troll miniature.
I'm just wondering: If a 3 troll gobbo team is found lacking in playtest - would 2 lonerless trolls really be any better?
To me it looks like a further bonus would then be required.

Anyone else want to comment on this?

[plasmoid]

Hi Shteve0,

Yep, ok. I always thought the intention here was to preserve team identity and style, but no biggie.

I think team identity has very much been preserved.
I specifically meant that using multiple skill picks to regain skills lost in the team tweak was going too far, and that a frenzy basher could be developed instead of doubling up on block.
Also, I want to preserve team identity, but something has to change.
And the early blodging guarders is part of the problem.
If someone says I've wrecked Chaos' team identity and style because Chaos is CPOMB, then, IMO, it's too narrow a view of team identity.

A bunch of guard standfirm blodgers to slap in the mix when the going gets tough enables you to clear out small pockets of the pitch, ither so you can lock it back in elsewhere or move your cage up a notch. Your opponent normally needs an open pow to clear that guard, and if you're lucky, you have three or four of them. So yeah, I think it's a long term nerf.

The problem is that I can't imagine a short term nerf that wouldn't spill into the long term. So, to compensate, they've been given something else. With universal A-access, any player on the team rolling a doubles can become a sidestepping guarder. So the hard to shift guarders are still a viable team development path.

Cheers
Martin

[MattDakka]

Hi Matt & Matt - duly noted.
I'm all for a solution with just 2 trolls, since I'm not really happy about the need for that extra troll miniature.
I'm just wondering: If a 3 troll gobbo team is found lacking in playtest - would 2 lonerless trolls really be any better?
To me it looks like a further bonus would then be required.

Anyone else want to comment on this?

Hi Martin!
I think that 2 lonerless Trolls open new possibilities, for example more reliable throw team mate 1TTD (Goblins have MA 6). 3 loner Trolls don't make 1TTD easier.
A buff I would introduce if 2 Trollls were insufficient is fixing the overpower of Tackle-spam against Stunty teams, either considering a defender stumbles as a push back or allowing Dodge to work for purpose of rerolling Dodges.
Another possible buff is reducing the reroll's cost.

[MKL]

Hi Matt & Matt - duly noted.
(...)
I'm just wondering: If a 3 troll gobbo team is found lacking in playtest - would 2 lonerless trolls really be any better?
To me it looks like a further bonus would then be required.

Anyone else want to comment on this?

Trolls are extremely unreliable: ime, many coaches refrain from activating them during key turns, especially for dangerous block/blitz/break tackle actions. Having 3 Trolls don't resolve this. Lonerless Trolls, on the other hand, opens up some more play options.

[adhansa]

I think a fixed 4+ to return from a sendoff at the end of each drive and +1 to foul AV-rolls sound like a balansed option for Sneaky git. How does this combine for being sent off for fielding a Secret Weapon?

If Goblinteam goblins get this for free and 2 lonerfree trolls i think they with a simple change have got a substantial boost.

[plasmoid]

I'm thinking: 2 trolls. lonerless. SG on all the weapons (free). Rerolls back to 60K.

[plasmoid]

Edited. New stuff in green.

[yarrick]

Hi guys

for us the testing of the NTBB rules have been very successful in the NZCL (New Zealand Capital League)

There are a few changes i would consider making, first off the Sneaky Git (SG) definately make this a 4+ roll can't be modified at all because this could be an easy way with bloodwiser babes to get your SW back on really easily with out bribing which has its own reward in a 2+ roll.

the bank i reckon it needs to be changed to when you are transfering money to treasury as sometimes you don't know who you are going to play so i reckon that its an option to use money to give you an advantage that way its a great tactic in order to gain an advantage, which teams do in any sport.

The Vampires now we never tested these however they got me thinking, the thralls rather than getting badly hurt when bitten by a vampire if injury is caused, they should be moved to the Knockout bin instead of being injured. they are just drained of blood and not killed and have the potential to come back in the game that would help them considerbly i think, and keep the thick skull on them too as you want them to stick around... i think this will definately help the team develop more easily as they won,t get their thralls pitch cleared as much... just an option.

Halfings i don't know they need something, they are far too crap at present.

amazons i am unsure... i would consider wrestle jump up and sidestep for the blitzer at no cost it would make them more viable option and help with the cost of 90K

in all the changes have been great still room for improvement, the dwarfs are fine they really did'nt get nerfed that much juggernaut is a great skill and works well with them.

Like i said we have enjoyed the rule changes they are pretty good, a few teams need to be tweaked a bit but i honestly think that this set of rules are far better the LB6.