He plays like a daemon Act 2 ;)

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:38 am

I know a lot of coaches there will piss me off

I read some times ago Blood Bowl Magazine, and finally found it should be interesting to offer as an alternative to chaos team a mark of daemon: ie instead of big guy, allowing 2 bloodletters, 2 plague bearers, 2 pink horrors or 2 daemonettes ... (even if I found these last ones unbalanced according to their AG4 considering there could be in the roster team 4 players with a ST4...)

Great Daemons should be freebooted... Like for a starplayer.

I'd like to know your comments, additions, and why you found Daemon teams so ...

Regards,

DFC

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Jul 05, 2002 1:31 pm

I believe that a combination of Unstable on the Greater and linking them to an On-Pitch Spellcaster is a way to handle them. We'll see, Deathwing has a Bloodthrister in the MBBL2.

Galak

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Fri Jul 05, 2002 1:47 pm

Alternatively how about replacing the Chaos warriors with Daemons on a 1 for one basis. IE For Nurgle 4 Plague Bearers instead of 4 Chaos warriors.

How about even having any combination of that but not allowing more than 4 in total in the team. therefore you could have 2 Plaguebearers and 2 Chaos Warriors if wanted

And yes replace the Big guy with a greater daemon.

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Fri Jul 05, 2002 1:54 pm

or, you could replace the chaos warrior's model with a plaguebearer model, keeping the same stats, and using that doubles rtoll for hideous appearance down the road...

....cosmetics and mechanics... demons have always been mechanically over-the-top, lesser, greater, and middle-of-the-road... i've seen plenty of chaos devotees get by on the strenngth of their ability to pass off whatever chaostic models they desire within the framework of the existing mechanics... mutations on doubles cover a lot of flavor, and models are models...

i knew a guy with a "rotters" team, he had one of the really old great unclean ones, for game purposes an ogre, a combination of plaguebearers and converted chaos warriors, all chaos warriors for game purposes, and a collection of assorted decayed players (nice skele conversions) and nurglings sort of stacked on top of each other in piles on a round base, all used as beastmen in the game...

....i'm just not sure you can simulate the power level expected in demonswithout creating rosters that are unbalanced, or having to engineer all sorts of rules overhead into the system... especially when all you need is a tad bit of creativity to get it done within the existing roster...

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Jul 05, 2002 3:28 pm

I second Lucien's opinion. Demons are not needed. Adding flavor to the chaos team seems to most of people mean adding something, either skills or players, to the chaos team - which is IMO not the way to go.

But it seems to me that many of these people would need a rule saying that they can use their own imagination before they would add flavor simply by using different figs and calling them by different names.
Same with the brettonians - there is absolutely no need for a brettonian team. This is because the human team exists already, and it can easily cover both brettonia and the empire.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Sat Jul 06, 2002 6:41 am

Many thanks guys...

Lucien:

....cosmetics and mechanics... demons have always been mechanically over-the-top, lesser, greater, and middle-of-the-road...

....i'm just not sure you can simulate the power level expected in demonswithout creating rosters that are unbalanced, or having to engineer all sorts of rules overhead into the system... especially when all you need is a tad bit of creativity to get it done within the existing roster...

Somewhere (in a chaos area), I should understand and agree what you said... In the same time, daemon teams including a special position (daemoneetes, bloodletters, etc...) introduces not only a marketing plan for daemons teams (what ? £25 for a bloodthirster ???), but also an interesting alternative... if not in your gameplay and tactics, in the opponent attitude (I played one time with a daemon team, and the opponent always tried to block and destroy my bloodletters). These new position players really adds to my mind a new challenge... But the roster team as made before to my opinion, wasn't balanced... the less we could say ! So that's why I asked if removing permanent greater daemons, and making them "starplayers" (only freebooted), and removing possibility to have a big guy instead of this new position player (bloodletter, ...) shouldn't be a good deal, in balance terms.

Mestari:

But it seems to me that many of these people would need a rule saying that they can use their own imagination before they would add flavor simply by using different figs and calling them by different names.
Same with the brettonians - there is absolutely no need for a brettonian team. This is because the human team exists already, and it can easily cover both brettonia and the empire.

Even if I understand your opinion, adding new players, or new teams, isn't to my mind a bad idea... See the success of alternative roster teams, in Galak PBeM league !

If you consider Bretts are not needed, what do you think about 1/ Norsemen, 2/ Amazons, 3/ Khemri ?

McDeth:

Alternatively how about replacing the Chaos warriors with Daemons on a 1 for one basis. IE For Nurgle 4 Plague Bearers instead of 4 Chaos warriors.
How about even having any combination of that but not allowing more than 4 in total in the team. therefore you could have 2 Plaguebearers and 2 Chaos Warriors if wanted
And yes replace the Big guy with a greater daemon.

I especially like your second suggestion... TO be true, there are a lot of roster teams I'd like to see with a "position player" option, ie taking several position players, or a big guy, ... THe #1 suggestion makes me think that in the original roster team, these special players are allowed in the 0-2 limit ... So your second suggestion is to my mind better than the first one... In this case, what about keeping the Big Guy ?

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sat Jul 06, 2002 9:18 am

Actually French i believe mestari wasnt saying we dont need the brett team but that a coach doesnt really need brett mini's.He thinks people should think outside the box when puttting together the mini's for a team. Sub the newest umie team for bretts and for a beastmen team in a vanilla league, use beastigors for your chaos warriors.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Sat Jul 06, 2002 11:21 am

Arf, another language nuance, you think ? Maybe... Maybe because of lack of imagination, I'd rather think about game and players positions before putting a mini on the pitch... But you know, I've played looooooooong time with only a few stars and the plastic teams in the game set. Orcs have been Chaos, Undead, Humans High elves, dwarves... So to be true, this isn't a real willing of "I want to put my nice minis on the pitch" feeling, especially in case of daemons (as said before, greater ones are so expensive my girlfriend would kill me

). This is just because I've found the first daemon rules set too beardie, but interesting, and would like to have your feedbacks on why daemons teams are so

, and if nothing should be made for them, considering balance game

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sat Jul 06, 2002 2:12 pm

DaFrenchCoach wrote: Even if I understand your opinion, adding new players, or new teams, isn't to my mind a bad idea... See the success of alternative roster teams, in Galak PBeM league !

Not a bad idea, but the "success of alternative roster teams" is IMO the problem: new teams imo should be average teams (look at my albion team in an another thread - that's my idea of adding teams: average). For example the fact that amazons have fared so well in many leagues is a clear show of failed team design: the desire to add something just because it exists in the warhammer world overwhelmed the desire for reasonable team design.
New teams should be:
1) balanced and they should introduce a new team concept
2) based on warhammer world
3) average compared to existing teams

DaFrenchCoach wrote: If you consider Bretts are not needed, what do you think about 1/ Norsemen, 2/ Amazons, 3/ Khemri ?

Brets: there is nothing in warhammer world that would indicate that brettonian way of playing bb would be different from the one in the empire. If you want a team to be brettonian, just call an ordinary human team a brettonian team. Well, the only important thing is - no knights, pleeaase!!!
Norse can be understood to be different. The team design... well, it's better than the unofficial suggestions there used to be...
There is no reason to split up undead (to khemri and sylvanian) or chaos (to beasts and thugs[marauders if you insist]).

If a league wants to add a myriad of new teams, fine, but IMO the official rules should stay away from most of them.

Post by **Thadrin** » Sat Jul 06, 2002 3:03 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again....I think the best team for "alternative" races is probably the Orcs.

For Brets, say a Lineman is a Squire or a peasant. Say a thrower is an Archer. Say a Blitzer is a Man-as-arms, say a Black Orc is a Knight. the profiles and everything work. I bought one of Phil's rather spiffing Nippon teams. I'll be using Orc rules for them: Black orcs become SUmo, Throwers become Ninja, Blitzers become Samurai.

I'd love to know what would happen if you turned up to a GW tournament with a bunch of converted Brettonians and said to Andy or Jervis "This is my team. The figs are all GW - as per the rules - and I'll be using the Orc roster for them. You got a problem with that?". Are they REALLY going to say you can't use the team?

The problem with creating new teams is that they have to bring something new to the table. I loved Mestari's rugby idea, which I came up with the idea of having as an Albion team. A team based around a group of guys with Dump Off is new to the game. A Brettonian Roster would have to do the same, and I have yet to see a good one that does.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Sun Jul 07, 2002 7:44 pm

DaFrenchCoach wrote:Many thanks guys...

I especially like your second suggestion... TO be true, there are a lot of roster teams I'd like to see with a "position player" option, ie taking several position players, or a big guy, ... THe #1 suggestion makes me think that in the original roster team, these special players are allowed in the 0-2 limit ... So your second suggestion is to my mind better than the first one... In this case, what about keeping the Big Guy ?

think its got to be one or the other either 1 big guy or one Daemon.
Chaos may start slow, but they develop into a powerful team after only a few games, too much strength will probably be overkill, and replacing the Big Guy with a Greater daemon keeps it a better balance and also differentiates from the Basic Chaos Team roster.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Sun Jul 07, 2002 9:10 pm

McDeth wrote:
DaFrenchCoach wrote:Many thanks guys...

In this case, what about keeping the Big Guy ?
think its got to be one or the other either 1 big guy or one Daemon.
Chaos may start slow, but they develop into a powerful team after only a few games, too much strength will probably be overkill, and replacing the Big Guy with a Greater daemon keeps it a better balance and also differentiates from the Basic Chaos Team roster.

Erm, I'm not sure I was clear when trying to explain my idea of balance with daemon teams... To my mind, a greater daemon (to be sure we call the same thing: a bloodthirster, for example) used as ally (ie replacing a big guy) is too powerful and a little bit unbalanced... So that's why I asked for making them not permanent, but only freebooted. But of course, I'm agree with you a balanced roster team can't allow having a big guy AND a daemon permanently...

In the same time, I think having a mino AND 2 bloodletters for example is also beardie... So my proposal (not a really one, only an idea, in fact) should be, including your suggestion:

#1:
0-12 Beastmen
0-4 special players, which have to be choosen in 0-4 chaos Warriors, or/and 0-2 bloodletters, daemonettes -BTW? I have a problem with these ones, due to their 4AG ... it breaks the rule of 2K1 making, made by neo, if I don't make a mistake here-
1 big guy (ogre, mino, ...)

Greater daemons only freebooted...

#2:
0-12 beastmen
0-4 Chaos Warriors
0-2 Special players (bloodletters, daemonnettes)

Greater daemons only freebooted...

Hope I was clearer here

... But maybe you think solution #1 is too beardie (the one you talked in your last message)... By removing the big guy, it should be more balanced with the actual chaos roster team... But after all, maybe Lucien and Mestari are right... it's not a real important change ...

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:45 pm

Number one, personally im not too fond of the beastmen/chaoswarrior combo in the first place, i like the idea of 3 chaos teams. Thats not to say i endorse the Chaos Marauder concept as it was in bb compendium. As an aside whats wrong with the idea of demons possessing regular team players, with limits. U set up the 11 guys and have to cast a possession spell during the drive. U would still pay for the demons on the roster but u would not always be able to have them on the pitch, greater or lesser.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:03 pm

personally i've never been truly happy with the Prescence of Greater Daemons on the pitch. I think to represent there true power requires them having either a strength level far above enough even a Big guy to have them backing off, or a combination of skills making them incredibly powerful.
In game terms this makes them capable of almost winning a game by themselves,which defeats the object of making a balanced team.

While i would certainly enjoy the ability to create a Chaos Team for every facet of the Chaos mark, i would be just as happy to see The greater Daemons kept out of it altogether. I suppose some dialogue explaining there unwillingness to take direct part, but sending there lowly lesser daemons as their representatives ( IE Plaguebearers etc ).

Therefore that leaves us currently with :

A Combination of 0-4 Chaos Warriors ( Of which 2 may be replaced by a lesser Daemon.
1 Big Guy.
and the rest being Beastmen.

So how about taking it possibly a stage further by tinkering with the beastmen. At present they begin with one starting skill a trait of Horns.
What if the trait was different for each Chaos God the team was dedicated to. Therefore For Nurgle each Beastman would start with Foul Appearance,
for Khorne, Frenzy. For Slannesh ??? an appropriate trait or mutation, and the same for Tzentech ( or however it's spelled ). This hopefully should keep the level balanced ie a trait/mutation for a trait/mutation. the only problem of course is representation of the models. Is it practicle to have a beastman without horns. personally i don't have a problem with it, but i daresay some will.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 1:48 pm

OK, let's thrown away greater daemons... After all, as said before, minis are so expensive I agree with phil when talking about marketing plan. If you add the fact that's it's nearly impossible to have the exact representation of strengh of a greater daemon... In fact, McDeth, you'd talk about lessers daemons before, when you say it should replace big guys... it sounds.

While i would certainly enjoy the ability to create a Chaos Team for every facet of the Chaos mark, i would be just as happy to see The greater Daemons kept out of it altogether. I suppose some dialogue explaining there unwillingness to take direct part, but sending there lowly lesser daemons as their representatives ( IE Plaguebearers etc ).

Completely agree... Now. At least, we can imagine a small help from their deity during the match...

Therefore that leaves us currently with :

A Combination of 0-4 Chaos Warriors ( Of which 2 may be replaced by a lesser Daemon.
1 Big Guy.
and the rest being Beastmen.

Yep. It's OK. I think maybe daemonettes should have their AG decreased to 3 instead of 4, in order to follow the team builing rules made by a famous NAF consultant (can't remember his name

)... and maybe allow them to have agility skill, instead of strengh skills ? (not sure it's more balanced than a AG4 ...)

So how about taking it possibly a stage further by tinkering with the beastmen. At present they begin with one starting skill a trait of Horns.
What if the trait was different for each Chaos God the team was dedicated to. Therefore For Nurgle each Beastman would start with Foul Appearance,
for Khorne, Frenzy. For Slannesh ??? an appropriate trait or mutation, and the same for Tzentech ( or however it's spelled ). This hopefully should keep the level balanced ie a trait/mutation for a trait/mutation

. [/quote]

the idea sounds good, but at this point, you're right to my mind when saying it should be difficult to make a balanced team with it... why not the chaos warrior ? You would have no problem with foul appearence (an more when chaos warriors from nurgle rotters will be released, cf official website), it should concern only 2 players, Frenzy, it's ok... For Slannesh and Tze..., I don't know enough those ones, but I guess with 2nd edition minis, we could find something nice for them... What about this ? it should be the "little help" i talked below from their deity , doesn't it ?