New Idea (new thread)

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 4:01 pm

Ok! After giving the matter a lot of additional thought over the last few days and checking in to see how people feel on these issues, I think I'm ready to put together an experimental bit of stuff for playtesting. I'll post the details after lunch. In the meantime, here are a few other items:

* I think we can all agree that Orcs have too many position players

(In fact, I think quite a few teams have too many position players, and Blood Bowl doesn't have enough Linemen, but that's an issue for another time.)

* I don't put too much stock in small numbers, but it's interesting to see a lot of support for DP as +1/Guard.

* While we're on the subject, I can't figure out how you can calculate your blocking dice without adding up the ST values of the players and all the assists. I mean, how do you know two numbers are different without knowing the numbers? That's either the lamest thing I've heard yet, or the strangest

* Here's how a player with the proposed MB sees the world: "Orc, AV8...Human, AV7...Wood Elf, AV6...Halfling, AV5." I think we can all agree that there's value in a skill called "The Opposing Players Loses 1 pt of AV"

* That said, I can think of at least one value that you could add back to Strength skills that would kill some current cheesiness and arguments while also improving the lot of many heavy hitters. It was buried somewhere else, but I'll revive it after lunch.

* It's understood that this would require a lot of playtesting. I never said any differently. But I think the goals are good, and the end results would make for a better game more in line with the Older Days.

Cheers!

-Chet

P.S. I'm going to create an on-line table comparing various items, similar to Teemu's. But it will be much smaller, I promise

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:38 pm

Acerak wrote: * I think we can all agree that Orcs have too many position players (In fact, I think quite a few teams have too many position players, and Blood Bowl doesn't have enough Linemen, but that's an issue for another time.)

Nope...that's what makes orcs playable/competitive. But as you said, different argument for different time. suffice to say that some teams have lots of linemen, other teams don't because their linemen suck. Overall it balances out...I don't think that's in question.

Acerak wrote:
* I don't put too much stock in small numbers, but it's interesting to see a lot of support for DP as +1/Guard.

You guys are about This Far from making me break out that "Pansy Little Elf Bowl forward that I've kept in my email account for the last 7 or 8 years. DP as +1 to arm with NO INJ MOD is the lamest thing I've ever heard, assists for fouls or not.

Acerak wrote:
* Here's how a player with the proposed MB sees the world: "Orc, AV8...Human, AV7...Wood Elf, AV6...Halfling, AV5." I think we can all agree that there's value in a skill called "The Opposing Players Loses 1 pt of AV"

Sure, there's still some value in that yes, but less than there is now, which in itself is less than it was before. I say if we're really taking all inj mods away (except maybe the stunty one which I think should stay) then make it +2 to arm, and let it stack with stuff.

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Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:27 pm

* While we're on the subject, I can't figure out how you can calculate your blocking dice without adding up the ST values of the players and all the assists. I mean, how do you know two numbers are different without knowing the numbers? That's either the lamest thing I've heard yet, or the strangest

I think you misunderstand me. What I meant was that with a block you you are looking to get 1 2 or 3 dice, not a specific number. In a foul, not only are you adding up all the assists but the skills too! It's seems a little messy to start adding "guard" to the players as well. I don't know about the rest of you but blocking is something that alot of the coaches around here just "see". The adding up is done so quickly that it seems second nature. In a fouling situation it's not like that. Especially when you are talking about 9 or 10 players who may or may not have guard.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:15 pm

Wesley, please go to the mbbl2 website. Look at the Blackskulls Bashers team, and tell me no one has more than one line orc to put on the pitch at once. Even if they dint have have the sneaky git, that doesnt mean they would always have the 4 blitzers and 4 bob's and the troll (which they would replace the git with). Not to mention i would rather use line orcs than throwers on defense. Its a matter of choice, i choose to use line orcs, i believe others do as well.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:38 pm

sean newboy wrote:Wesley, please go to the mbbl2 website. Look at the Blackskulls Bashers team, and tell me no one has more than one line orc to put on the pitch at once.

OK fine, I generalized. Most people wouldn't do that. For my money, the best (somewhat developed, since that's what we've been talking about this whole time) orc team on offense is thrower, skilled gobbo, 4bob, 4blitzer, and ogre. Maybe switch the gobbo for the 2nd thrower depending on opponent and playstyle.

On defense, you have 4bob, 4blitzer, ogre, and a "defensive" thrower with stuff like nerves of steel and safe throw so you actually have somebody who can pick up the ball reliably when you knock it loose...then MAYBE 1 line orc if you don't field the gobbo to have someone to throw it to.

So there's one line orc. Maybe. Sometimes.

sean newboy wrote:Even if they dint have have the sneaky git, that doesnt mean they would always have the 4 blitzers and 4 bob's and the troll (which they would replace the git with).

I can't think of a single case, where having a line orc on the field is better than having a position player, unless they have upgrades or something that mitigate.

sean newboy wrote:Not to mention i would rather use line orcs than throwers on defense. Its a matter of choice, i choose to use line orcs, i believe others do as well.

A thrower is just a more skilled line orc. Yeah, they're AV8, but you shouldn't be getting them hit that much anyway. I always field the more skilled player when given the opportunity, I think that's probably common.

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:40 pm

Hey, Wesley, while you were there you should have also looked at the Wonka's Wonders roster. No throwers!

Anyway, please, don't use this change to bring us pansy elf bowl.

Here's my choices:

A) Leave the Casualty roll and the Eye in the game!

and, if that's not possible because of the overwhelming love for anything Chet thinks up...

B)

* PRO: 4+, skill
* DIRTY PLAYER: +2 to Av on fouls
* PILING ON: Armour Re-roll
* MIGHTY BLOW: +2 to Av on blocks
* CLAW: *+2 to Av on blocks or fouls and -1 to ball handling
* STUNTY: KO's on 7's

I can understand no Mighty Blow on fouls - it's supposed to be a hard hit. But you can't tell me a guy with a claw shouldn't be allowed to use it as part of a foul.

Don't nerf me strength skills!

Pink Horror

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:28 pm

You guys are about This Far from making me break out that "Pansy Little Elf Bowl" forward that I've kept in my email account for the last 7 or 8 years.

7 or 8 years? Wow. I didn't realize the sky had been falling for so long! And to think that we survived all this time without an umbrella

-Chet

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:47 pm

Acerak wrote: * While we're on the subject, I can't figure out how you can calculate your blocking dice without adding up the ST values of the players and all the assists. I mean, how do you know two numbers are different without knowing the numbers? That's either the lamest thing I've heard yet, or the strangest

Don't be rude.

Most people I know (and this could easily be a local league thing, but I have a feeling it's not), do the math like this:

Human Blitzer hitting Orc Lineman. I know their ST's are equal, now I just have to figure out the assists. I have two and he has none, that gives me an advantage block. Notice I never used the numbers.

Human Blitzer fouling an Orc Lineman. Ok, I get +1 for fouling, and I have two assists, that's a total of +3. He has no assists, so there's no negative. Notice I need to know the exact number, not just that it was an advantage.

John -

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:08 pm

Ok. I think I'm just about ready to set this up and start testing it. I'm going to get back to the original suggestion a bit, modified by all the input here.

Alright. Here goes with non-skill changes:

1. Casualty die disappears.
2. IGMEOY disappears. Fouls are now a straight AV roll with +/-1 per assist.
3. The "AV skills don't stack" clause disappears.
4. You can re-roll AV. Injury is out of your control (that's why you re-roll AV), so it can't be re-rolled or otherwise modified.
5. Goblins become AV6.

Skill changes will generally be kept to "No INJ mods." Here's a laundry list:

* Dirty Player: +2 to AV

* Mighty Blow: +1 to AV

* Piling On: AV re-roll (more below)

* Stunty: +1 to injury removed

Pro and Claw would remain unchanged. Aside from the change to Piling On, AV breaks will remain no worse than before. (Given the change to re-roll AV, I would actually expect them to increase across any league. After all, Lineman with Pro will almost certainly outstrip players with Piling On.)

I sidestepped the DP "Guard" issue. There's always room for a Sneaky Player skill if enough people want it. This change to DP keeps AV breaks fairly constant, with the +1 to throw a foul removed. (The player who commits the foul gets a free AV roll. If you want to add a +1 for being helpless, it ought to be a +1 to stunned players!)

Finally, Piling On would suffer the biggest drop in AV breaks and casualty rates. (On the plus side, you'd finally be able to combine it with Claw, a flaw in the current system.) Accordingly, the fall will be changed to a controlled fall ala Diving Catch. This means that the player automatically regains his feet, although he can't use the skill (a) if he didn't follow up or (b) if he was knocked down as a result of the block. This means that the skill is slightly weaker in its effect, but there's no longer a penalty for using it. It's still situational ("a" and "b" above) but it's no longer the exclusive province of Big Guys and Norse Blitzers.

(And while we're on this subject, a small tangent: Teemu rightly suggested that players with 30% injury rates shouldn't be on the field...which is why the POn/RSC monster ought to go.)

Playtesting concerns:

* If DPs begin to rule the field as they did in the old days, DP goes down to +1 on Fouls, possibly with the Guard-like ability put in place to add some use to the skill. (This gives a good reason to keep more than one DP on the field. Right now, it functions a bit like Horns.)

* If Orc, Chaos, and Dwarf teams are somehow no longer competitive, MB becomes +2 to AV. (Note, however, that while this would reproduce the old casualty rate, it would also increase the AV breaks in the game, thus making these teams better than they are now.)

* If Stunties magically take over the universe, some small penalty (e.g., KOd on a 7) is reinstated. (I believe that an AV of 6 for these players will be sufficient handicap, however.)

I expect that any small drop in casualties as a result of the change to Mighty Blow will be picked up by Pro and extra foul attempts. (The loss of RSC simply affects too few players to be a real factor.)

I think that's everything. Sorry if I left anything out.

Cheers!

-Chet

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 5:16 pm

Leave Piling On players standing? You've got to be kidding me.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 5:41 pm

Acerak wrote:7 or 8 years? Wow. I didn't realize the sky had been falling for so long! And to think that we survived all this time without an umbrella

-Chet

I didn't write it, and disagreed with the author at the time (although it was very funny, which is why I saved it)

Seriously, though, I thought fouling was too strong in vanilla 3rd Ed BB, but I think it's way too weak now. It's very rare to see one or more actual deaths (after apoth etc) now, even when the most vicious chaos teams play each other.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:34 pm

No, John, I'm not kidding. Run the numbers yourself and I think you'll see it's not warranted. I mean, if you feel you have to keep this part of the skill in the game simply because it's in the game now, that's one thing. But I'm saying something else: "Let's have a ST skill that lets you re-roll AV. You knock the guy down, he doesn't break, so you fall on top of him quickly and get back up. And we'll call it 'Piling On.' You'll need to follow up to use this skill, and you can't use it if you get knocked down as a result of the block, but otherwise it's just like Diving Catch or the old Diving Tackle in terms of regaining your feet."

Under the current rules, you need to put the piling player on the ground. The skill is too good otherwise because the AV mod is too large. But this change would accomplish two things:

1. It would remove the complaint about using the current version of POn after the AV roll.
2. It would be commensurate with the actual value of the skill. (Or: "It would give something back to bashy teams.")
3. It would open the skill up to more players who have Strength skill access. Currently, it seems reserved as automatic choices for Big Guys and Norse Blitzers. (*yawn*)

-Chet

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:42 pm

Acerak wrote: 5. Goblins become AV6.

Fine with 1-4. Q here is does the price drop on them accordingly?

Acerak wrote: Skill changes will generally be kept to "No INJ mods." Here's a laundry list:
* Dirty Player: +2 to AV
.

+3?

If you're taking away 1/2 the ability of a skill, you need to replace it with something.

Acerak wrote: * Mighty Blow: +1 to AV.

+2?

See above.

Acerak wrote: * Piling On: AV re-roll (more below)

This is fine, but it doesn't really sound like a "piling on" anymore.

Acerak wrote: * Stunty: +1 to injury removed

I still think this is better left unchanged.

Acerak wrote: (The player who commits the foul gets a free AV roll. If you want to add a +1 for being helpless, it ought to be a +1 to stunned players!)

I actually like this idea. It should be easier to further hurt someone stunned. Additionally, it will actually make people think about who to foul. Always used to be if one guy was stunned and another prone, you always foul the prone guy first because the stunned guy wasn't going anywhere anyway.

Acerak wrote: (And while we're on this subject, a small tangent: Teemu rightly suggested that players with 30% injury rates shouldn't be on the field...which is why the POn/RSC monster ought to go.)

Bah, if a guy wants to use a trait and a strength skill for injuries, he ought to be good at it! Think about the other skills he could take instead. This also assumes he can knock the player down first.

Acerak wrote: Playtesting concerns:

* If Orc, Chaos, and Dwarf teams are somehow no longer competitive, MB becomes +2 to AV. (Note, however, that while this would reproduce the old casualty rate, it would also increase the AV breaks in the game, thus making these teams better than they are now.)

Anybody think it's odd that the mainly elf coach is sticking up for the hitty teams?

I say you start at +2. These teams could use a leg up, after weakening MB already, as well as stand firm and multiple block and so on...and I know I've said this before, but for god's sake bring back the spp for cas.

Acerak wrote: * If Stunties magically take over the universe, some small penalty (e.g., KOd on a 7) is reinstated. (I believe that an AV of 6 for these players will be sufficient handicap, however.)

Very unlikely to be an issue.

Acerak wrote: I expect that any small drop in casualties as a result of the change to Mighty Blow will be picked up by Pro and extra foul attempts. (The loss of RSC simply affects too few players to be a real factor.)

Great. So now you have to take 2 skills to equal what used to be one, coupled with fouling, which means now your better players have to risk ejection.

One thing is for sure, when my Dark Elf blitzers roll doubles someday, the last thing I'm going to do is give them strength skills. Especially not Mighty Blow like I used to. Same with my witch elves....but of course they use their doubles on dauntless now anyway.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:42 pm

Forgot to add something regarding those changed skills:

* Claw should get a -1 mod to handle the ball! This is not important for attrition purposes, but deserves a mention nonetheless.

* Piling On would still be the skill of choice for heavy blockers who routinely follow up their opponents to keep them in Tackle Zones. These players include BOBs, Big Guys, Norse Blitzers (as Frenzy ensures that you always follow up), Mummies, and any Chaos Warriors used as bashers, as well as various Dwarfs. Mighty Blow would still be the usual province of the mobile Blitzer-type (e.g., any Blitzer, Wight, Storm Vermin).

I think this would work rather well. I realize it seems strange at first, but I got over it

-Chet

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:45 pm

and I know I've said this before, but for god's sake bring back the spp for cas.

Sorry, lost that in the shuffle. Of course, you'd get 2 SPPs for any Casualty you caused to an opponent. This would include players pushed OOB or fouled. Much simpler, cleaner, and more in line with the spirit of the game, IMO.

-Chet