Imagine This

[Acerak]

It's been my experience that many coaches feel the game would change seriously in favor of speed or finesse squads if Rule X or Change Y were adopted. I've certainly voiced similar opinions in the fast. In hindsight, however, I think the game has changed relatively little since the introduction of the Casualty Die. Before that, the game was dominated by older teams with established Dirty Players, regardless of race. Since then, however, just about every team has won championships. Any team is capable of making a run for the title in the hands of a good coach.

So I'd like you to imagine something. It's purely speculative, just something to think about. It does not have anything to do with October, the Rules Review, or anything else. I'd just like to hear what you guys think.

Imagine for a moment that Mighty Blow was the only skill that affected AV or INJ. Claw, RSC, Piling On...all gone.

Ok. If you're a team without regular access to those skills, your skill selection doesn't change much. If you're a team with such access, however, it certainly does.

So I'd like to know what you guys would take if those skills weren't available. Suppose you had one of each of the following players. What would you give them on the appropriate roll in lieu of one of the deleted skills?

* Norse Blitzer
* Mummy
* Chaos Warrior
* Beastman
* Skaven Linerat
* Storm Vermin

Now I want you to ask yourself whether you think the teams represented in this list would still be capable of competing for titles in the absence of these skills.

My own answers:

* Norse Blitzer: Mighty Blow or Tackle
* Mummy: Block (duh) or Guard
* Chaos Warrior: Block, Stand Firm on doubles or Tentacles or Spikes
* Beastman: Block or Tackle on a normal roll, any mutation aside from Thick Skull on a doubles roll OR Stand Firm
* Skaven Linerat: Block or Tackle on a normal roll, any mutation aside from Thick Skull or Very Long Legs on doubles
* Storm Vermin: Mighty Blow on a normal roll, Horns otherwise

My own feeling is that the game would still be balanced and playable for these teams. If you gave me the roster of a typical developed Chaos team and asked me to substitute skills as needed, I could easily build something that hit hard and still played solid Blood Bowl. And it could still do just as well as it does now.

Do you agree?

Thanks for discussing.

-Chet

[neoliminal]

I don't tend to play the basher teams, so this would probably be a bit off anyway...

* Norse Blitzer - Tackle, Guard
* Mummy - Guard, Break Tackle
* Chaos Warrior - Sure Hands, Pro
* Beastman - Tackle, Strip Ball
* Skaven Linerat - Strip Ball
* Storm Vermin - Tackle, Strip Ball

Personally I don't see the need to stack these injury skills. The rough teams are still taking people down because they block better than their opponents. Have you even gone up against a team with lots of Guard... I think that's worse than lots of MB/Claw/Whatever. It's hard to knock any of their guys over and they keep smacking you around all day.

[Balrog]

the problem is that eliminating skills eliminates choice, and ultimately makes for a less fulfilling game experience. If I want to play a game with no choices I'll go play monopoly.

Now, my choices for the blitzers would be to alternate between guard and tackle. I find mighty blow has been toned down enough so that it doesn't warrant first or second skill pick for anyone.

-Balrog

[Thadrin]

* Norse Blitzer - Well, piling on was the obvious choice before...now? Strip Ball maybe. Tackle. Stand Firm on a double to counter side effects of Frenzy.
* Mummy - Block will always be the first choice. After that...God, I don't know. Stand Firm again on doubles...Break Tackle could be supremely useful.
* Chaos Warrior - Again, Block on Doubles. Stuff like Tentacles, Spikes, maybe Big Hand, Mighty Blow would be in there too
* Beastman - Big Hand, Block, Guard, maybe Extra Arms to build a reciever.
* Skaven Linerat - Block, Tackle, Shadowing. Fun stuff like Tentacles, Foul appearance on doubles.
* Storm Vermin - Guard first choice. Strip Ball, Mighty Blow...

Whatever, I really don't like the idea. Why? you're removing only Strength skills, and that limits development for the basher teams, where there is already a limited number of choices, especially compared to Agility skills.

Incidentally, that Cutblock skill I came up with would be GREAT on a Norse Blitzer...

[neoliminal]

I find mighty blow has been toned down enough so that it doesn't warrant first or second skill pick for anyone.

That's ironic, considering that that there is only a ~2% reduction on casualties caused by MB. (Pink Horror doesn't like when I say this because he thinks it's misleading, so I'll explain my math.)

Given a 2D Block against AV 8 opponents, the total chance that you will cause a casualty is ~2% lower with the new MB. Odd are very low that you will need +1 on BOTH the AV and Injury roll.

[Dangerous Dave]

I agree with Balrog - welcome by the way - glad the addy works!

I mean - if you still think the ST teams will do OK.. then are you saying they were overpowered before?

What if you thought agility teams were overpowered.... right lets get rid of:-

Dodge
Sure Feet
Catch
Leap (Cheese!)

I mean we have team rerolls.... they can reroll that stuff.

Sorry, I am being facetious here.... I can understand the drive to try and simplify. But elimating choice from a Coach is not the way to go. Now if every team picked the same skills that would be different. Ok maybe every coach picks a lot of Block.... but that aside... choices thereafter are often different.


Let's sort out inconsistencies, make adjustments if skills are over / underpowered... but let's leave lots of choice. If a Dwarf team roll doubles and wants to take lots of Sprint... I say go for it..... (not my choice but what the hell!).



Dave

[GalakStarscraper]

No offense Chet but I look at the popularity of the MBBL2 which has added skills and teams. I added several Strength skills because in my opinion there was not enough diversity.

I know you said in theory ... but I like skills ....

Galak

[Zombie]

He's right Neo, it IS misleading. When presented right (i.e. in the fashion that percentages are meant to be used in the first place), the decrease is probably around 30%. Big difference.

[Zombie]

I agree with everyone here. Simplicity is a good thing, but not when it's achieved by removing skills. Personally, i'd like more skills to pick from, not less.

Oh and Dave, you should see the proposal i made to divide the block skill in two. I think you'd like it.

[Ghost of Pariah]

What do I think? I don't like it at all.
So some skills are redundant? Big deal. I'd like to see more skills to choose from.
Ok...I'm imagining it. I'm imaging a game that has been stripped down like a Lexus in the hood. I'm imagining a game that abandoned fun and strategy in favor boring statistics and lack of choice. I'm imagining scrapping the LRB in favor of my own redeux.

[Pink Horror]

It's misleading because it's wrong. How many examples do I have to give you?

Hmm, let's say the store you go to says they took 20% off of each price. So you pick out some stuff and go to the register. Then, when you look at your receipt, there was only a 20 cent discount on the price of each item. Well, guess what, the store mislead you the same way you're misleading the rest of us.

Why? Well, the store used percents incorrectly. The price they gave you was price - 20%. The price you should rightly expect is price - (20% of price).

Given a 2D block againt AV8 opponents, the total chance that you will cause a casualty is approximately 33% lower with the new MB.

Which one of these represents the natural usage of percents:

A) OLD_MB - (33% * OLD_MB) = NEW_MB

B) OLD_MB - 2% = NEW_MB

If you answered A, good job, you might just know a little grade school math. If you answered B, um, Chet and Neo, I don't know what's wrong with you two.

For those wondering how such a small difference could equal 22%, or how such a big difference could equal 2%, I'll try to explain.

Casualties don't normally happen on blocks. We all know this. The total percent of blocks that will cause casualties is going to be low in this game no matter what skills you have. The regular bloke needs maybe 30 blocks before he ought to get a casualty. That's means his total chance is less than 4%. Let's keep pulling numbers out of thin air and also say that back in 3rd edition a block with mighty blow could bring that up to 8%. That doesn't look like much, it's only a "4% increase", but now he's causing casualties twice as fast. If you have an eye for the big picture you might notice what seems like a one hundred percent increase in production, and your eye would be right.

So, now let's say that mighty blow only brought his total casualty chance up to 6%. The difference between this and the 3rd edition version again looks small in these terms. 8% - 6% = 2%. But, what you'd notice if you ran a test with thousands and thousands of rolls is that the 4th edition guy would 25% less casualties than the 3rd edition guy. It shows you that if you add a small number to a similarly small number you're making a large percent change. That's the way things work.

Do you understand yet, Neoliminal?



Pink Horror
[/i]

[Pink Horror]

Oh, gee, I forgot to actually address Acerak's question. I imagine a dull place if I only get one casualty modifier. I like the variety. C'mon, Acerak, you want to help out all us Blood Bowl fanatics? Add some new skills. I think many will be thrilled. Don't take skills away, expecially Claw. Mutations look great and I'd prefer it if there were even more modeling chances included in the physical ability table.

I don't think the inclusion of Piling On is important for any team's title chances. I do think that I'd prefer to keep it in the game because it helps give my teams some personality. Claw is possibly the best mutation for a bashing player, so I think you'd make Chaos slightly less atractive by removing it. Maybe they'd be pratically as good, but less people would use them. Team appeal is as important as competitiveness.



Pink Horror

[Sputnik]

Hi!

I also don't really like the idea. Makes mutations even less attractive. And I guess it makes the strength teams look all very similar after a while. Block, guard, stand firm, mighty blow! O.k., some with tackle here, some with a nice mutation there. But overall you have enough trouble to get your SPP and then you still need a double for claws! So why not fear the chaos warrior with claws/razor sharp claws? He worked hard on it, so I hope not to have too many killed players in the end. fair enough!

Sputnik

[Toby]

"Spikes" (Pysical Trait) changed to "Spiked Helmet" (General Trait)
Mighty Blow adds +1 to any Armour & Injury Roll caused by a Block, Foul or Tackle.
Dirty Player adds +1 to the Armour & Injury Roll on a Foul Action.
Dirty Player adds -1 to the Penalty roll after a Foul Action.
If the foul results in a casualtie, the player who took the Foul Action gains 2 Star Player Points.
Fouls can not be assisted by other players.

Example:
Human Lineman (Dirty Player, Mighty Blow) takes a repeated Foul Action against a
Wood Elf Lineman (Block, Dodge, Spiked Helmet)

Armour Roll Modifiers: +1 (Foul Action) +1 (Dirty Player) +1 (Mighty Blow)
Injury Roll Modifiers: +1 (Dirty Player) +1 (Mighty Blow)
Penalty Roll Modifiers: -1 (Dirty Player) +2 (IGMEOY)

Armour Value to beat 8; modifier + 3; roll needed break armour 6 (58% Chance)
Injury Value to beat 9; modifier +2; roll needed to inflict a casualty 8 (42% Chance)
Penalty Value to score 6; modifier +1; roll needed to send player off 5 (33% Chance)

Casualty Propability = 24 %
Penalty Propability = 28 % (after shouting at the referee)

So my suggestion is make an armour increase availiable, remove fouling assists and apply a new general rule:
"limit for combined armour or injury roll modifiers"

General rules that always apply:
The limit for combined armour or injury roll modifiers is +3
Armour, Injury and Penalty Rolls may not be re-rolled.
Unmodified rolls of 6 always succeed and a unmodified rolls of 1 always fail

[neoliminal]

It's misleading because it's wrong. How many examples do I have to give you?

If what I'm saying is wrong, what's the right way of saying what I see:

Out of 100 block, only 2 of them will be negatively affected by the change in this rule.

You tell me how to say that, PH.

John -