Discuss Fantasy football-style board games - GW's Blood Bowl, Impact!'s Elfball, Privateer Press' Grind, Heresy's Deathball, etc. THIS IS NOT AN NFL FANTASY FOOTBALL SITE!
GalakStarscraper wrote:
Standard league ... the MBBL Season 2 will allow them.
Galak
Really? But these rules aren't official yet, I thought the MBBL was official rules only?
I'm not pro or con, just wondering.
However, I suppose the MBBL2 will allow them? I think I just found my new team...
-Dave
Actually .. no ... I announced somewhere ... thought it was to the league ... that the MBBL would be LRB + Experimental + very very well thought out and requested BBRC testing for the rest of its lifetime.
Since these rules are experimental they are in for Season 2.
As for the MBBL2 using these rules ... nope .. which might surprise you.
I'm 100% happy with the ally system used by the MBBL2 and my own league versions of the Old World and Evil Gits teams. So until these teams are official ... they won't show up in the MBBL2. The day they do become official ... will probably be the day the MBBL2 disallows all allies for the following season. No one complains about the ally rules of the MBBL2 so I have zero reason to want to include teams that are out of synch with the rest of the league.
GalakStarscraper wrote:
Actually .. no ... I announced somewhere ... thought it was to the league ... that the MBBL would be LRB + Experimental + very very well thought out and requested BBRC testing for the rest of its lifetime.
Since these rules are experimental they are in for Season 2.
As for the MBBL2 using these rules ... nope .. which might surprise you.
Galak
You're right about the experimental rules being in, I forgot about that. Ok, cool.
Bah, in that case here come my steampunking dwarves (in the MBBL2)!!!
Chet: i'd take the chaos pact team and completely crush your dark elves game after game with them. It's not even close to being fair.
Thadrin: a wardancer, a high elf thrower, a human thrower, two big guys and 6 dwarf longbeards for the line, don't tell me that's not grossely overkill compared to any of the 15 teams currently available.
So what do you do if you don't have BB MAG 3? The only shop in my area will not order any of the new BB stuff because GW makes it so difficult for them.
I wouldn't mind taking the Chaos All Stars for a spin. I wasn't 100% satified with how my orcs finished up and now seems like the best time to try out an even punchier team. And if they are all powerful like the Zombonie says then all the better! I'm due to hurt some people!
I'm working on typing up all the experimental rules for the league. So you won't HAVE to own BB Mag #3 to play in the MBBL. So just give me a second Pariah and you'll be able to see them online at the website.
My guess is that even though Season 1 of the MBBL ends next week Friday that it will have about a 3 to 4 week downtime as I set up for Season 2.
I have to program in the kicking skill; the test rule about Leader not working if the Leader is not standing; and the Niggle every half rule into the PBeM tool.
BB Mag #3 goes on sale Saturday in the UK so I'll order a copy then in order to get it as soon as possible to type up the rules for the new season.
Zombie wrote:
Thadrin: a wardancer, a high elf thrower, a human thrower, two big guys and 6 dwarf longbeards for the line, don't tell me that's not grossely overkill compared to any of the 15 teams currently available.
I'd happily take that team on.
Then while the Treeman was asleep in the woods I'd be jumping up and down on the wardancer with everything I had. Let the two, decidedly average movement, throwers toss the ball to each other - let them use the few rerolls up on the catch rolls because they don't get agility skills, and because with the rest of the team having AG2, including all those MA4 Longbeards, there's no one else to catch it.
If I'm a Dwarf coach going against that I also have my slayers to take care of the Ogre.
Thats one way it could go anyway - but I'd lay money any decent Elf team would fancy their chances, or for that matter Orc, Dwarf, Human, Norse...
So no, its not Grossly overkill.
Reason:''
I know a bear that you don't know. * ICEPELT IS MY HERO. Master bleater. * Not in the clique.
Member of the "3 digit" club.
I'd rather wait having the complete rules in my hands, but I'm not fond of those allied teams in a league...
> It would be better if the allied teams wouldn't have access to BG, and would have some positions access forbidden
. As said before, the mix should be highly unbalanced IMO (let's say I would take Lustrian power... Instead of a blitzer, I would find more clever to take an amazon thrower... With all my "linemen" skinks, it should be very funny for me. Unfortunately, not for you. THen add some BG on the bitch... argglll.)
> What I like in Blood Bowl rosters teams is the unity, building a strategy for a team... Those big mixs should (I say should, not will) kill this feeling. Allies are IMO an exception to the rules, so they would have to be limited in number. I'm a fan of something like 2 extra positions per teams in league teams: 1/ one for big guy, one for ally 2/ or 2 for allies (but only a position ally, ie 1 human blitzer and an elf lineman, for example).
> Elves playing with Dwarves ? I think all the ghosts from heroic fantasy are laughing in their graves. Old rules (2nd edition) should be fixed for 2K1 rules set (animosity, racism ? Don't know the word in english for the exact translation of the game term).
BUT if ALL the teams are built with it, it should be balanced. I'm especially think about a pro bowl in a league between the 2 best coaches, playing with 2 of this 3 lists... players should be taken in all teams, no injuries, ...
One more tiem, this isn't a definite opinion. I'd rather wait for having it in my hands.
I totally agree with Zombie (despite our little frictions on the Locker Room before). This rules should never become official. They are dramatically unbalanced on the long run.
The teams you can build up under those rules are too powerful when compared to the other 15.
I must add that I think "pact" rules are better than "ally" rules, but only for chaos teams (don´t ever want to see elves and dwarves on the same team, overpowered or not). In fact, I think that making possible background teams like Chaos All-Stars, the Underworld Creepers (mixed Skaven-Goblin team) or the Mongrel Horde (Chaos races mix team) is the only reason to write this kind of rules.
In my opinion, just one toned down Chaos Pact team is admisible. Or needed.
Just my two cents.
Manu
The Locker Room is so quiet now without Morg and Zombie...
The idea of the pact teams is great.
As manusate said, the Chaos Pact team especially has a reason to exist, far more so than the other two. Skaven/goblin team would be nice also.
We'll just need playtesting to say whether the team is overpowered or not. Both are to me real possibilities, but IMO it's hard to say which is true.
Hopefully these teams are considered to be officialized no earlier than Oct2003 so we can get enough of playtesting.
Reason:''
[url=http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3460]-[/url]Teemu
[i][size=67]Don't lynch me! I'm the captain of the carpet ship![/size][/i]
Ok, so some of you don't find the imbalance as obvious as i do (or don't even see an imbalance at all). So let me demonstrate.
Let's first start with the Lustrian team. On the long run (not that long, i estimate about 8 games before you've bought everything and have 4 rerolls), you can have the following:
Let's compare this the the closest current roster, i.e. Amazons. Most people would agree that the following is an Amazon roster that's at least as strong, if not slightly stronger, than the official one, so for ease of comparison we'll use this:
1 Thrower
3 Catchers
4 Blitzers
8 Linewomen
Notice that i only replaced a thrower with a catcher, which i believe gives you a slightly better passing play, though more risky if you lose the thrower.
So the comparison goes as follows:
1 Thrower -> 1 Thrower : same
7 Linewomen -> 7 Linewomen : same
3 Catchers -> 3 Skinks : better catchers with MA8 and stunty
1 Linewoman -> 1 Skink : better, you get a 4th catcher
1 Blitzer -> 1 Saurus : better, since it gives you much needed ST4
1 Blitzer -> 1 Ogre : much better
1 Blitzer -> 1 Kroxigor : much better
1 Blitzer -> 1 Norse blitzer : much better, you get block, frenzy, jump up, pilling on after one normal roll
Why would i ever want to play Amazons (a decent team out of the 15 basic ones) when i can have this?
Now, onto the Old World team. On the long run (this time, about 9 or 10 games and you have 3 rerolls), you can have this:
1 Human thrower
1 Wardancer
2 High elf line-elves
6 Dwarf longbeards
1 Ogre
1 Treeman
2 Halflings to toss around
2 Human linemen
Let's compare this to the closest current roster, chaos dwarves. On the long run, they look like this:
6 Chaos dwarf blockers -> 6 Dwarf longbeards : same
1 Bull centaur -> 1 Wardancer : better, it opens up great new plays
1 Bull centaur -> 1 Human thrower : could go either way (opens up passing play but makes you weaker on defense)
1 Troll -> 1 Ogre : slightly better
2 Hobgoblins -> 2 High elf line-elves : much better
2 Hobgoblins -> 2 Human linemen : better
2 Hobgoblins -> 2 Halflings : much better (one-turn score and doom divers)
1 Hobgoblin -> 1 Treeman : much better
Again, why would i ever want to play Chaos dwarves (a very decent team out of the 15 basic ones) when i can have this?
I won't even talk about the Chaos pact, it's too obvious that it's grossely overpowered compared to the basic teams.
Now the only argument you could come up with against these teams is the following: they cost so much that it takes too long to develop. Well, first of all, it doesn't take that long. Only 8 games for the Lustrian team and 9 or 10 for the Old World team. Even with the cost of 3 rerolls included, a complete Wood elf team still costs 150k more than the Old World team presented above (actually, more like 400k more if you include all the line-elves you have to sack and the reroll you have to buy at double cost). Second of all, and this is the most important point, on the long run, money doesn't matter. Let me illustrate this with the following example.
Let's say that the Chaos team had the following line-up:
0-12 Beastmen
0-12 Chaos warriors
Would that be overpowered?
Sure, it would take a long time to build up the team in order to have 12 Chaos warriors, but by the time you do it, no team will be able to beat you, except maybe another Chaos team built the same way. Yes, that team would be gravely overpowered.
The same would be true with any team that costs that much, because they cost a lot for a reason: they're good. Remember Vampires? Here was the perfect example of a team that no other team could have a chance of beating after they got enough positional players. Remember that they could get 12 Vampires on top of the Vampire Lord.
So basically, what i'm saying here is that cost is not an equalizer, at least not in the long term. And it doesn't matter what the winnings table looks like; given enough time, you can always manage to buy everything.
Anyone still not convinced? I know Chet won't be, since he designed the rules and intent to play the most grossely overpowered team himself in the next league, so it seems fine with him! But does anyone else still not see the problem here?
Why compare the Old World team the Chaos Dwarfs? lol Why not to the regualr dwarfs? You say it's the closest current roster? What are smoking? Where are the throwers and blitzers on the Chaos Dwarf roster. Make a real comparison.
Where are the blitzers? Bull centaurs are just about the best blitzers in the game! I chose chaos dwarves as a comparison because both teams had only 6 CDs/longbeards, so yes, chaos dwarves are the closest team for comparison. But if it makes you feel better, compare the team to dwarves, you'll get the same result.
I think the rules need some tweaking certainly, but the ideas there are great flavour wise and certainly have potential to be something very cool - not beardy: I have already thrown together fluff for the team I put together using the old world rules (the town the team represents is built up around a Brewery: The Dwarfs are the Brewers, the Ogres do the heavy construction and so on, the Humans do the day to day workings, and the Halflings - Quality control!). No elves there.
Three suggestions then...lets see if Zombie can still throw together his rosters - which I maintain would take some time to build up wit the current money rules - with these three restrictions in place.
1) No matter what the fluff for the All Stars says: one big guy per team.
2) No more than two positional allies allowed.
3) High Elves are too proud to EVER join a mixed team. They are removed from the old world allies list (Ulthuan isn't actually in the old world anyway.)
You still get the flavourful teams. You still get the fun of Pick and mix.
You get less powerful teams - because Zombie does at least have a point about the sick amount of ST available to the Chaos team.
Oh, can we add one too?
Underworld Creepers:
0-10 Goblins
0-6 Skaven Linemen
*0-2 Skaven Linemen may be replaced with Skaven Throwers.
*0-2 Skaven Linemen may be replaced with Stormvermin.
Rerolls 80k
Reason:''
I know a bear that you don't know. * ICEPELT IS MY HERO. Master bleater. * Not in the clique.
Member of the "3 digit" club.
Thads: I'm OK with you as said before... maybe not about the free linemen number, if I've understood well, but for the rest, it's OK for me. Hey, btw, underworld creepers are really a good thing
