Piling On fix

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:36 pm

Why's this always happen to me at the weirdest times when BB isn't even on my mind?

I just got an idea about a good way to tone down piling on without screwing with the rules too bad, and it makes a LOT of sense. Or at least it does to me, which experience tells me means you will all think it's retarded. Well here goes anyway:

Piling On will work exactly as it does now, EXCEPT that it will also cause a change in the igmeoy counter. It doesn't actually make the opponent roll as if you had fouled (aka you can't be ejected) but it does get the ref's attention.

Why this is good: In many ways piling on is just as dirty as fouling. I always considered it more or less equivalent in terms of the play style...I had a rule that I would never foul first, but piling on would also give me the right to retaliate.

So what it means is your opponent will always have the right to retaliate on a Piling On guy by fouling him without worrying about getting caught on a 4+. It ALSO means that a guy who piles on and then fouls is asking for it.

So what do you think?

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:49 pm

I think this is good actually. Yes, I can see the similarity in use of Piling On and fouling, so I quite like the idea of the eye following the Piler On as well as the fouler. (I also view someone who Piles On as asking to be fouled, and don't usually foul too much at other times.)

Probably lots of others won't like it though!

Cheers,
Martyn

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:56 pm

OK, Piling On was improved from BB 3rd ed. to BB2k1, and now you want to tone it down again? Just put it back the way it was, seems simple to me.

-Balrog

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:25 pm

Agreed. The only thing that needs to be done about pilling on is to bring it back to what it was before, which means that you must declare its use before armour is rolled. You can't get a simpler fix, and it even makes more sense that way!

CplSaint · Post by **CplSaint** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 4:49 pm

I disagree. Piling on is too strong a skill, especially with the dearth of Big Guys in the new rules. +5/6 to an armour roll is a ridiculous amount - Skaven, Wood Elves, Humans, Goblins and many other types have only a 1/36 chance of NOT being injured. Halflings are automatically injured (unless you consider the roll of a double 1 to be included in the 'unmodified 1 always fails' rule).

While it's not such a bad skill for a ST3 or ST4 player, it's overpowered for Big Guys. (Mummies are an exception, with their ST5, but it's a one-team advantage, which I think is fair enough - in addition, Mummies low MA makes up for this.)

I like Wesley's idea, but I think it would be easier all round if the Piling on Skill became a trait - it would then be much rarer and (in my opinion) more fun.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:09 pm

Sorry.... you are saying Piling On is too good a skill.

Well. It was not prevalent before the change. A number of coaches believe it is too strong now (Balrog and myself amongst them). So we are using it more than we would before the change.

I agree with Balrog - put it back to before the roll and, since no one complained before, I assume that no one will complain again if its changed back!

Dave

manusate · Post by **manusate** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:16 pm

Yeah, just declare it before the roll. Same goes for Diving Tackle.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:22 pm

Dangerous Dave wrote:put it back to before the roll and, since no one complained before, I assume that no one will complain again if its changed back!

Dave

Well... having reaped the benefits of using it the way it's currently written, I'd hate to go back to the old way of using it. That said, though, I really don't care. It works both for me and against me and that's ok in my book.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:23 pm

See though I like my idea better than switching it back to the way it used to be. Now it's still a great skill (it was kinda weak before) and this way adds a lot to it, but it still has an effect on the "dirty play scale" like fouling.

The old Piling on skill was designed without igmeoy in mind, so it kinda didn't jive with it. This way takes the new rules into account and makes for a sensible addition that adds a lot of strategy i think. As I said, fouling and piling on are sorta equivalents in the eyes of a lot of coaches, they should be treated somewhat that way. This does that without a lot of fuss.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 9:12 pm

Or you could leave it as is, but make it a trait. That way Big Guys are going to have a hard time even being able to get it. It also stops the PO/Jump Up combo entirely (apart from Norse).

Ian

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:01 am

It doesn't make sense fluff-wise to make it a trait. Pilling on is definitely something you learn with practice (i.e. a skill), not something you're born with.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:17 am

Why not give pile on a penatly roll like fouling, because that's what it really is, a blatant foul on a player that is down (I can't see anything more blatant than throwing yourself on top of a prone player in an attempt to injure). If there is a chance of getting tossed out, maybe some people will stop whining about how powerful the skill is.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:26 am

The skill will never make sense so long as you can wait for the dice roll, because the position of your player on the pitch is changed. The only way for it to make sense realistically with respect to timing is to revert it to the old skill. Any other proposed solution would leave it broken, if not for its power, then for the timing associated with it.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:34 am

It's just so stupid how GW changed a bunch of skills seemingly just for the sake of change. Some skills may have needed change, but many were fine the way they were. I almost dread to see the outcome of this years rules review.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sat Sep 07, 2002 2:45 pm

Torg wrote:Why not give pile on a penatly roll like fouling, because that's what it really is, a blatant foul on a player that is down (I can't see anything more blatant than throwing yourself on top of a prone player in an attempt to injure). If there is a chance of getting tossed out, maybe some people will stop whining about how powerful the skill is.

Because then nobody would ever take it? In that case, why not just foul?

My way (which, as predicted I seem to be just about the only one who likes it) is the middle road. By moving the ref marker, if you do nothing but pile on it has no effect on you. (except that you invite retaliation by fouling) But if you pile on AND foul, then you're asking for trouble.