To Galak: list of clarifications

[Lucien Swift]

But Mestari ... I like my Wardanders, Troll Slayers, and Witch Elves ... .... do we really need to official kill them off name wise.

well, you could call it a trollslayer blocker? this is why i was happy to add a "bucket" casering to my list rather than shoehorn all the weirdness into the five existing colors...

as for the tbbf's painted mini rules, i don't like the way they directly affect every match, though i do agree that rules need to be in place to encourage painting... here's my league's painting policy:

Miniatures Policy:

The league would prefer that all participants own a fully-painted team that accurately represents their full roster. To encourage this, it is the league's practice and policy to provide rewards for those coaches who comply.

Miniatures

Ownership of miniatures to accurately represent all roster players affords a team a bonus of 20,000gcs at creation. Additionally, this same bonus will be paid to the team during each pre-season thereafter so long as the team is still in compliance. A team which is aquired after the team is created starts gaining the bonus imediately upon inspection by the commissioner, and is eligible for continuing bonuses during each preseason.

Additionally, Non-player miniatures are essesntial for maintaining a proper atmosphere around the game. For this reason, a team which has an appropriate, painted miniature for their head coach, apothecary, team wizard, etc... plus at least 1 painted appropriate miniature for every 5 assistant coaches or cheerleaders they possess will be eligible for an additional 10,000gcs initial and quarterly bonus.

Painting

A painted miniature is vastly superior to an unpainted one in every possible way. A team will receive an additional 20,000gcs bonus each quarter if all player and non-player miniatures associated with the team are fully painted. The pieces need not be painted to a professional standard, but they must show sincere and thorough effort to produce a result of the most effective quality the painter is capable of. The commissioner reserves the right to decline the grant of this bonus for failure to put the minimum standard of effort into painting (no dipping!).

Base rings

Color-coding the base-rings of players helps both coaches follow the game and speeds turns. It is both sporting and convenient for everyone involved. Properly painting all base-rings according to the standard of the league outlined below gives a team an additional 10,000gcs bonus each quarter.

Position/Base Color
Grey - Lineman
Red - Blitzer
Green - Blocker
White - Thrower
Yellow - Catcher/runner
optional coloring
Orange - Runner
Purple - Unspecified types
Blue - Kicker
Non-Player - Black or Brown

If you have any questions as to the position of a member of your roster, please ask the commissioner for a ruling.

What is an "Appropriate Miniature"

An appropriate miniature is one which has been selected because of its ability to portray the player or staff member required in a reasonable way. Conversion and painting can make up for a lot, but a miniature which is clearly not able to convey the role it is set to (a space marine is never going to be acceptable as a High Elf team's wizard, no matter how it is painted). The commissioner is the final arbiter as to the appropriateness of a miniature required to gain the quarterly bonuses.

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in practice, most people wind up with 40 or 50 k every 6 or 7 games as a result of this policy.... it's enough of a bonus that it's worth the effort, not enough to ruin the league.... oh, and some sort of base treatment, flocking or otherwise, is a part of "painting"...

[Mestari]

But Mestari ... I like my Wardanders, Troll Slayers, and Witch Elves ... .... do we really need to official kill them off name wise.

I'd call them blitzers, blockers and... ok, witch elf is hard to classify.
Do you think you know what is the dwarven concept of a blocker? Temorgh, my dwarven side personality says that them dwarves think that a player that is brave and capable enough to take on big monsters is a blocker

Ok, I wouldn't mind a few special players, as long as the vast majority conforms to proper positions. I see no justification for the high elf positions, for example.

Interception timing:

Now I agree in some ways it doesn't make sense. But this is a game mechanic I understand why its there. Its a game mechanic pure and simple.

It's a senseless game mechanic that has no justification at all. Here I'd like to have somebody telling me why it should remain as it is. Earlier I've provided quite a solid case telling why it should be changed, and I've seen no good justifications for the current ruling except for the fact that BBRC members seem to be unwilling to change it.


But my personal thoughts aside, I'll add it to the list.

Thanks.

[Cervidal]

Now what're you going to do for us poor schleps who're color blind?

Learn how to quick-read a spreadsheet and you won't have to worry about this wacky color coding system. Silly color-dependant folk... always chasing rainbows and stuff...

[Lucien Swift]

well... i've never actually had a color blind coach in my league.... and to be honest, i wouldn't change policies for his sake... majority rule yadda yadda...

...i've had plenty of people who painted miniatures like they had no idea what colors they were using, but that was just adject lack of artistic ability...

[Dangerous Dave]

I agree with Lucien, that there should be some benefit for painting but up to 3 Handicap Rolls per match is way too much.

I think it would be better at a tournament if quality of painting was an extra competition (eg to win a set of figures) - and any coach running a team which was unpainted (includes dipping! - does anyone really do this!) or didn't have appropriate minis etc receives a penalty - say 950k to spend instead of 1,000k (for an ongoing league there could be a 50k cost each season).

I say this for 3 reasons:-

1 The BB comp winner should be the best player on the day - yes you can include sportsmanship here - that is an important part of the game.

2 Anyone with the best painted / modified figures deserves to win a set of figures - they will obviously be looked after and painted well.

3 A player winning with a painted team will have used the official BB rules and will not have had his / her roster enhanced by unofficial cash payments!

But to mix quality (or lack!) of painting and BB results up is wrong IMO.



Dave

PS Lucien I assume that the reaosn you brought in the "no dipping" rules was because someone tried it!.... do you have pictures!

[Lucien Swift]

this brings up something else that i'm been sizzling on for a while... when dave says more or less) that a tournament winner should be the best coached team, he's right... i've always thought that tournament play should not use either weather or kickoff tables... competitive tournament play should be a straight-up test of coaching skill... things like riots, blitz results, and heat waves have an undue impact in a situation where you have 1 game to move on... sure, it's fun fluff for season games, but when the chips are on the line, i'm not going to be amused if i wind up at the bottom of the ladder because of a few bad die rolls which were not actually aspects of the game-on-the-field...

just a pet peeve...

as for dipping, i've only had threats of actual diupping, but i have had a couple of guys who spray-painted their minis a single color then expected get around painting requirements... those guys always wind up making their minis black or red.... every time... just goes to show you why i'm always wary of people with black color schemes, they tend to be trouble...

[Cervidal]

Lucien, you take me too seriously. I simply like to tweak the nose of the best laid plans now and again.

Though this is horribly off the original thread topic... requiring people to paint their miniatures will drastically reduce your playing pool. Many people are into the game but not the painting. I'm suprised that some leagues exist with such harsh penalties for non-painters.

No, I'm not a non-painter. I'm rather proud of my work. It's one of the few things I'm known for in the OBL!

[Lucien Swift]

that's why i like to keep my semantics aligned to _reward_ painting rather than _punishing_ non-painting... the tbbf handicap system is a punishement, that breeds resentment, my league handing out a little cash for painting just encourages painting... and you can get a good chunk of cash in my league just for owning a team that accurately repesents your roster, painted or otherwise... my league's greatest problem was always proxy figures, painted ones were a luxury...

i also put very little emphasis on the quality of paint jobs, i know that only two or three people in my usual gaming circles can actually paint to an impressive standard, and i accept simply block painting within the boundaries of "the best paintjob you are capable of" but by that same token, if someone like myself tried to get the reward for a quick block-colored team, i'd hold back the benefit...

i don't think rewards for owning and painting teams, especially if they aren't dramatic, will reduce the interest in the game overall... they encourage the collection and enhancement of miniatures, and miniatures are the heart and soul of the game...

...i've never liked pbem because there are no miniatures, the whole thing is just pointless without colorful little metal men...

[Pink Horror]

There's a simple reason why the interception roll comes before the pass roll, Mestari. It allows a greater chance for interceptions when compared to the most likely alternative. That's a good enough justification for me.




Pink Horror

[Anthony_TBBF]

the tbbf handicap system is a punishement

It is punishing, but I think every team except one in our league is painted. We actually never use it, it's just there for chronic abusers. I really like Lucien's system though.

[Darkson]

that's why i like to keep my semantics aligned to _reward_ painting rather than _punishing_ non-painting

I think if you are rewardng painters then you are punishing non-painters, even if you are not taking away from them. It all comes down to your point of view. If I was a non-painter in your league I would feel punished if my opponent had an extra lineman/ff/whatever, just because he enjoyed painting figs and I didn't, and a policy of forcing coaches to paint by handicapping them could force newbies away. Do you give leaway to people just starting, who may have had to borrow mini's? Otherwise this is just another advantage to veteran coaches against rookies.

[Coach Barry]

Hello everyone. I think Lucien's system is really cool because it will create in the rookie the very accurate and correct feeling that minis must be painted and painted well. Painting is part of the game just like the minis. I play almost every game in GW range, except epic and warmaster, and I have a reasonable "ton" of minis to paint. But when I bought bloodbowl I knew that I had to paint the players, the game just didn't seem right without painted figs. I have a lot of teams yet to paint but I never played with them because I feel bad about playing them non painted.

About the interception roll being first to the pass roll, I find this very stupid. What happens if you actually intercept the ball and the pass roll is a fumble? And a pass could be so bad that the interceptor couldn't intercept the ball at all, i.e., going so wide that the real direction the ball went is simply too far away from the interceptor.

Just a thought. Well I'm off, going to train the stupid imbecils the president hired.

[Pink Horror]

Hello Coach Barry,

It's impossible for the pass roll to be a fumble if the intercepiton is made, so you don't have to worry about those circumstances. The order that dice rolls are made in does not have to be the order of events as they would happen on the field. Think of it like fate guides the dice. If the throw was meant to be too wide for an interception, the interception roll would fail and the pass would be inaccurate. If the pass was meant to fumble, the interception roll would fail. Its the odds, not the order, that matter. I wouldn't want to see a passing mechanic actually have fewer interceptions on hard passes than on easy passes. That would be very stupid.



Pink Horror

[Marcus]

Suggested painting rule:

A player cannot use any new skills until they are represented by an appropriate, painted miniature. Painting standard should be base colours at a minimum (not just undercoated).

Players may gain skills as usual, and may use any skills that they have as a rookie, but may not make use of those skills in a match until they are painted.

Basically a player is a rookie until he is painted and correctly represented.

We've used this rule in the ECBBL in the past, it ensures that coaches have some kind of motivation to get their painting done.

I'll cross post this to house rules to avoid straying off topic here.

[SBG]

Hi guys ! I know it must have been talked about elsewhere, and I don't wantto start a debate on it, just want to add my 2 cents : we housed rule the interception sequence because we thought it was impossinle to intercept a ball that isn't yet in the air. So we go : Pass roll, interception roll (if no fumble), Catch roll. Because we felt that in "real life", you don't get a chance to intercept the ball unless it passes by. Pass blockers just have a feel for when the other guy is going to throw; they "sense" it !

As for painting, interesting notes from everyone. Although I'd rather have everybody paint their minis in my league, not everybody is willing to, nor have the time/equipment/talent to. I, for one, am still in the process of painting my CD's and we're in our second season. So far, only 4 of them are painted. If, like me, you want your minis to look good, it is VERY time consuming. Sometimes, when girlfriend/wife/babies/ need attention, you must choose between spending three+ hours painting or actually play a game. I'd rather play most of the times.

Fred