BB culture worldwide

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 4:17 pm

Just an observation and request for discussion: I noticed recently, especially in my threads on using the correct mini in league, and rules that could "gently" encourage that practice:

It seems in the online BB community that there is a real drive to have everyone play the One True Game. I think this is kind of odd, as I most recently have been gaming with D&D/d20 a lot, which is exactly the opposite. Since the game mechanics are open content, third party publishers can go in and publish whatever add ons, house rules, changes, etc. that they want. Ergo, the community is very open about saying that yes, the core mechanics are the same, but the details vary widely from gaming group and gaming group, and not only is that fine, but it's preferable. If someone doesn't like Mongoose Publishing's rules for ship-to-ship combat, they can look at Green Ronin's rules, or Fast Forward Entertainment (I'm not 100% who's actually published rules for this, but I know there are three strong contenders out there with seperate rules for it.) This variety means that each gaming group can really find a ruleset that works better for their preferences without having to make it up themselves.

In Blood Bowl, on the other hand, there seems to be a push to arrive to at the One True Game -- some ruleset that supposedly makes everyone happy all at once and eliminates the need for exceptions and house rules. Personally, I think this is a bunch of codswallop, but I'm struck by the apparent drive amongst posters here to really truly try to arrive at that point.

Is this just my perception, or is that really something that folks here think is desirable?

Personally, I'd just as soon use LRB with a few 3rd edition or house rules added on. I think the direction the game has been going recently isn't quite the same as the direction I'd take it: it's becoming a bit too flag football for my tastes. So I modify some rules, post a wanted add at the local gaming store and start a league. I also prefer painted minis, although I don't want to exclude folks who can't (or don't) get around to it, so I institute a modest bonus for folks who paint them.

I post this kinda stuff here, and people jump all over me saying they wouldn't play in my league, and why am I changing things? From my past experiences with other games, other communities are perhaps more excepting of variants and the desirability of having variants. To me, I want a strong core mechanic that I can potentially tweak to get the style of game I want. Does the BB Community "at large" want this, or do they really want a one size fits all set of rules?

And if they want one, do they really think they can deliver it?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 4:25 pm

whats flag football?

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 4:29 pm

A game where nobody gets hurt unless they try really hard to do so!

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 4:32 pm

I think people are just after a standard set of rules so they can play anyone from anywhere and not have to worry about rule matching.

Take monopoly for instance and anyone who uses that stupid free parking rule where all fines go under free parking and who ever lands on it gets all the money. I hate that, its not in the rulebook yet so many people use it.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 4:33 pm

1 word: Tournaments

People want to be able to be reading from the same page when they compete with players around the world.

Home leagues are usually house ruled up the wazoo or have people playing whatever version of the rules they prefer.

Besides, it really wouldn't be a discussion forum if all anyone did was tell everyone else how they played the game.

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 4:33 pm

that we do not want, I think the drive is to eliminate uncertainty and rules lawyering for a base upon which house rules can grow.

When I played Pbem it was good that I knew and agreed with all the basics and Tom has a great abundance of housey stuff to beef it up.

We are not all down on you. At least you're not the Troll.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 5:51 pm

Grumbledook wrote: Take monopoly for instance and anyone who uses that stupid free parking rule where all fines go under free parking and who ever lands on it gets all the money. I hate that, its not in the rulebook yet so many people use it.

Funny. It's used here too. Seems to be a house rule like Sigurds roll in BB - everyone (except a small handfull) agrees to it, likes it, and uses it - around the world.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 6:58 pm

Marcus pretty much said it all. JJ has always encouraged house rules for leagues, but a universal core set is essential for both tournaments and multi-national leagues like the MBBL and MBBL2.

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 7:26 pm

To clarify -- I'm not saying I think the message board is down on me. I just find the contrast startling -- contrary to one stated opinion, there is a good deal more to talk about (and a great deal more discussion) in d20, for instance, where everyone's playing variants, many of them so different as to almost feel like another game entirely. And I know the developers have always -- at least in word if not always in action -- encouraged house rules, but I'm talking more about the "climate" if such a nebulous term can be used to describe it.

I guess I can see the tournament angle providing an impetus for a desire for greater continuity and consistency in many ways.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 8:01 pm

I think it's not so much about trying to find a "Universal" rules set, but trying to fix what are generally seen as "broken" rules.

Of course, I may have the completely wrong end of the stick.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 8:56 pm

Joshua Dyal wrote:many of them so different as to almost feel like another game entirely

My two leagues which have been mentioned twice in this thread are a good example of what the goal is Joshua.

The MBBL and MBBL2 if you played in both DO play like another game entirely.

The MBBL is the LRB rule book + current official or requested Experimental rules.

The MBBL2 is the LRB rule book with too many house rules to list.

In the MBBL2, you have 76 different team rosters to choose from, you can have Assistant Coachs who sneak a Stilleto to one of your players, Throwers who kill opponents by throwing the football at them, Skaven with Spring Powered Boxing Gloves, MA 6 Treemen with Frenzy, Orcs with bionic Arms, and Wizards casting spells while standing on the pitch.

The two leagues are almost two different games. But the one thing that both leagues have in come is that they use the LRB rules with virtually no modifications so everyone from all over the world (the MBBL2 has 15 different countries represented) know the basic way the game should be played. Both league have "house rules", but they are layered on top of the foundation of the LRB rather than modifying it.

Thus the drive for the solid LRB rule set and this layering house rules rather than replacing from the LRB seems to build the strongest international rules for a league and probably for many tabletop leagues as well.

Galak

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 9:14 pm

The problem with that approach is that you have to have an absolutely rock-solid core of rules to begin with. The LRB isn't that, because it's too dependent on what some people think the game should be like. The one big disappointment I have with the LRB is that the game feels more like flag football than bloodbowl today, so I can't just layer extra rules on top of the LRB and have a simple, elegant game with the same "feel" as the 3rd edition game I played when it first came out, before the "beardy gits" found all the cheesy combos that made the game tedious. So, I get out my hobby knife and superglue and kitbash the too rulesets together before I can even think about adding extra layers of rules on top of it.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 9:22 pm

Guess I'm pretty happy with the level of carnage in the game (especially with the LRB Piling On skill as it current stands). So I don't see the need to change the LRB rules.

These are the only LRB rules we changed for the MBBL2 for Season 3:

1) Dauntless is a skill
2) Kroxigors have Mighty Blow
3) You cannot freeboot Wizards or Star Players
4) Halflings and Goblins do not pay double for Ogre allies
5) You may Jump Up on a Pass Block move
6) Players with lost TZs cannot assist a block or intercept
7) Dead players can never get the MVP

That's it ... everything else we play with right out of the LRB as the foundation of the league rules, the rest are house rules layered on top of the LRB rather than changes to it.

Galak

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 9:23 pm

Personally i would say bb feels the same as it did in 3rd edition to me.

If the skill combos are your problem u can use the lrb and house rule the skills back to how they were, or if u don't like the aging ignore them. I don't see how you are saying you can't use the lrb.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 9:46 pm

Blood Bowl is a strategy game. All strategy games work better when everyone agrees on the same set of rules. You can't compare it to role playing, those are two completely different worlds. For example, powergaming is bad in role playing, but desirable in strategy games.

If i didn't believe so much in having one set of rules, i wouldn't have spent all those long hours perfecting the Oberwald with Brian and Gary.