BB mag 4 & Vampires

[Trambi]

Vampire team should have only few vampire and many undead (like skeletons, zombies) without thralls. Or vampire player in Undead team instead than mummies (should be only Khemry) or werewolf ( )
For me, it better than see a werewolf in a undead team.

Galak : I like your "Vampires play the first restriction"

[Furelli]

The team in BBMag #4 is an abomination. It is overpowered and 75% of the time will decimate its opponent.

My suggestion after seeing this team list is:

0-2 Vamps 7 4 4 8 Gaze, Regen, Side-Step Gen, ST, AG 150k
0-4 Ghouls 7 3 3 7 Dodge Gen, AG 70k
0-12 Thrall 6 3 3 7 - Gen 40k

70,000 Re-rolls
Apoc for Thralls only (Maybe Ghouls?)

Furelli.

[BigD]

0-2 Vamps 7 4 4 8 Gaze, Regen, Side-Step Gen, ST, AG 150k
0-4 Ghouls 7 3 3 7 Dodge Gen, AG 70k
0-12 Thrall 6 3 3 7 - Gen 40k
70,000 Re-rolls
Apoc for Thralls only (Maybe Ghouls?)

Hmmmmmm Like the idea of the Apoth but he should be used for everybody, not just the ghouls!

I like Galaks idea, the Vamps have to move first. It changes your whole style of play and means you have to set correctly for your next tun. It would make playing them quite a bit harder and 'balance' things out a bit as well.

But of course if you don't like them then just don't allow them in your league! I mean has anybody actually seen any new figures for this or is it another case of GW trying to flog of their present stock which just happens to have too many Vampires?

If they introduced some new figures to go with this then I'd grab them myself. If not to play then for display. Theres alot of potential of course for making a bit more cash for GW.

BigD

[DaFrenchCoach]

But of course if you don't like them then just don't allow them in your league! I mean has anybody actually seen any new figures for this or is it another case of GW trying to flog of their present stock which just happens to have too many Vampires?

If they introduced some new figures to go with this then I'd grab them myself. If not to play then for display. Theres alot of potential of course for making a bit more cash for GW.

If I'm not wrong, the only next releases should be 1/ Nurgle's Rotters 2/ Modular Ogres 3/ Maybe these elves we've seen on some pics.

But why not 4/ hum, let's say 3 models of vampires ? BTW, vampires are currently easy to convert (proof is I succeeded in with some minis... And for more fun, you should take the Stoigoi vampires (or something which sounds a little bit closer: stroigoi ? stogroi ?).

EDIT: this is Strigoi. Sorry, I'm not a warhammer addict !

http://www.games-workshop.com/storefron ... =12&c=1591

[GalakStarscraper]

Is that in addition to OFAB?

Ian

YES, in addition to OFAB, just make the Vampires all move before the Thralls or not at all and I bet the team is fine.

See I'm speaking from experience. I played 3rd edition Vamps in a league where they could not lose OFAB for 2 seasons. TR 300 Vampire team when it was finished and I still would lose on occassion due to the OFAB rolls going badly.

The BB Mag #4 team fixed A LOT of the problems with the team. Reduced the power of the Lord and making sure that OFAB cannot be lost were both vast improvements. Same for dropping the Thralls AV to 7.

Now again as its rare, Zombie and I agree on this one. The change to OFAB again moves this team into the "too good" category. I however like the new OFAB as it leaves the team was competiviteness, so what to do otherwise.

Well the flavor text talks about masters and servants for the team basis. Fine make the Vamps glory hounds and master who need their servants to know their place.

Leave the team exactly as it in in BB Mag #4 and just add one simple rule to the team. Make all the Vampires (including the Lord) go first before the Thralls. This will make it much more difficult to set up scoring drives or defense plays. The norm with this team would be to use the Thralls FIRST to set up assists and do some blocking to clear a path, THEN have the Vampire blitz in or through for the big play. By making the Vamps go first, you limit the teams potential by a large margin. Its simple, it makes sense in game fluff, and I think it solves most the problems.

Or to put it another way to think of it. Since the team is basically a Big Guy, 4 power players (average if you have 6 Vamps with the new OFAB), and Lineman ... well that sounds like a Chaos Team with an Ogre or Minotaur.

How effective would a Chaos team be if you required the Big Guy AND the Chaos Warriors to all move before the Beastmen? After you think about this, I think you'll see that this very minor change to the team would solve most the issues.

Galak

[DaFrenchCoach]

Yeah, something like the albion wanderers special rules, but simplier ? I think we've talked about it in the house rules section.

I strongly agree with you, but another way should be to add a negative trait to this vampire Lord, and decrease the number of vampires to 4... but not sure it should be enough.

[Colin]

I like Galak's idea, it's simple and would be effective. The only thing I would add would be to make the Lord move first before any of the other Vamps, failing to do so would be IP.

[Dangerous Dave]

Aside from the ST 4 AG 4 issue, my main concern with the Vamp team is Hypno Gaze. It seems to me that even if the Vamps all have to move first, its a very simple play to open a route with Hypno Gaze and a blitz for a load of thralls to pile through the opponent's lines. Of course moving the Vamps first, will make it harder to play them.... but not much.


Dave

[GalakStarscraper]

Having played Vampires for a while ... Hypno Gaze fails you quite often. You have these grand ideas of moving, gazing, and moving on. You move, you gaze, you fail ... than you try to Dodge away and fail (as Vamps have Elf disease for rolling 1s on dodges).

The limiter on HGaze is that you have to be adjacent to use it.

I'm going to see if I can get some MBBL'ers to try it out.

Also I could agree with the Lord having to move first, then the Vamps, then the Thralls, but I was trying to keep the rule very simple and folks start to object when a rule exceeds 10 words.

Galak

[Colin]

Sure, I understand you were trying to keep it simple. I think the lord moving first doesn't over complicate things (it's kinda like WA) and it fits into the master servent fluff very well.

I was thinking of something else, but this would be a bit more complicated that the Vamps move first rule. Something that could be considered is changing the OFAB skill abit. The Vamp Lord is the leader (and the coach), so there should be some negative thing connected to him being off the pitch (inj or tossed out). Make OFAB roll harder to make when lord is off the field and has to be made every drive (no exceptions for Vamps who missed last drive). This would reflect the idea that the lord's pressance on the field keeps the other vamps in line (less chance they will sneak off for a quick bite).

[MickeX]

But - aren't the decisions about in which order to move your player the best thing about BB since 3:d ed? I think that's why I feel intuitively bad about Galaks suggestion. Being forced to make several bad tactical suggestions in every turn doesn't feel right.

And fluffwise, a rule about vampires having to move before the thralls would make it damn hard for the thralls to serve their master. I want the other team to feel swarmed by thralls, preparing the ground for their vampire lord who's about to blitz through...

This is what I'd prefer:

0-1 Vampire Lord 200K 6 5 4 9 Reg, Hyp Gaze (G, AG)
0-2 Dregs 70k 5 3 3 8 Sure Hands (G, P)
0-15 Thralls 50k 5 3 2 8 (G)
Re-rolls 70.000
No apothecary
No big guys

An explanation with some fluff suggestions may be found at the other vampire thread, at
viewtopic.php?t=2784&start=0

Micke

[Grumbledook]

No apothcary or regenerate and have them hampered in the games, seems a bit harsh.

[Ghost of Pariah]

Harsh? Yes but it's freakin Stanta Clause time when you get to their stats.
6 5 4 9 + regen. Access to Block, Dodge & Mighty Blow. There aren't even big guys with numbers like that! The others are only slightly less maniacal.
I for one hate this team completely. I don't need to hear any "try it you'll like it" crap either. We had (almost) this team in the laegue once already and it was ejected and banned before you could say season 2. It was just ridiculous they things it could do.

[Grumbledook]

Oh i missed out they had regenerate, I shall learn to read at some point in my life.

[Longshot]

i ve seen BB4 and i will not agree my players using it.
Unbalanced IMHO.