Blitz! result and touchback

nouge · Post by **nouge** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:13 am

I'm not sure if someone asked the same thing recently (sorry if they did), but this situation came up in a game the other night during the kickoff:

The kicking coach placed the ball dangerously close to the LoS, and then rolled a Blitz! result on the Kickoff table. The ball was then scattered, and went into the kicker's half of the field - ie. a touchback.

Thing is, when does the touchback happen? Is it:

(a) Straight away, so the ball is given to a defending player which is then vulnerable to being blocked by the Blitzing team?

or

(b) After the Blitz! turn, meaning the receiving coach can take advantage of seeing what happens during the Blitz! turn, and that the ball is effectively 'out of play' for the Blitz! turn?

Since the kickoff doesn't land until after the Blitz! action is resolved, it does tend to suggest that option (b) is the correct one - but I'm still not really sure. What do you guys think?

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:49 am

Option b is correct, and depending on the league, you might have had to roll the scatter after the blitz turn, so you wouldn't even know it's a touch back. I don't know if that's the official rule (i'm sure however that it's not option a) but that's how it's played in my league and that's what we find fairest.

grimhael · Post by **grimhael** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:07 am

it clearly states in the living rule book that you

1/place the ball on the pitch
2/roll on the kick off table
3/scatter ball
4/resolve kick off results
5/bounce ball

Regarding touchbacks
"If the ball scatters or bounces off the field or into the kicking team's half, the receiving team is awarded a 'touchback' and may give the ball to any player in his team. Once the kick-off has been taken you are ready to proceed for the first turn"

Note that it does not give any timing on when the ball must be given to a player for the touchback. As you say there are 2 logical points where the touchback can be resolved: optiona (a) is after 3/ and option (b) is after 5/.

There are a couple of reasons why I would say option (b) is correct:
1) the touchback can be awarded after a bounce or a scatter, so having the touchback resolved after the bounce gives it a defined spot in the order kick-offs are resolved.
2) option (a) rewards the incriminating team - not good for game balance or fairness of play.

The last option which also fits the rules is that the receiving coach can choose either one of these points to decide which of his players will control the ball. I'm sure the receiving coach will almost exclusively choose option (b).

firebreather · Post by **firebreather** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:28 am

So does that mean that on a blitz players cant run into the opponents half and pick up the ball, instead they have to wait underneath it for it to land?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:55 am

That's right.

The good thing is you can run your players right underneath, form a cage around the reciever and take the fair catch.

If you can manage it of course.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:13 am

Makes kick a damn site more useful too.

Ian

tchatter · Post by **tchatter** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:23 pm

I would have to go with the rulebook on this one...

1)Scatter the ball. if a touchback the ball should be given to a player on the receiving team.
2)Then the Blitz happens.

Just like the Quick Snap... you scatter the ball and THEN you move one square. And then you bounce the ball. So if a touchback happened here you would have the ball before moving your guys.

I admit it is kinda unrealistic but that is how it reads in the LRB. Just like if you place the ball, roll the kickoff table and get weather change. Wouldn't it be like this:

1)Place ball
2)Roll scatter
3)Roll weather change
4)Roll bounce

What if one of your guys has a chance to pickup after the scatter... then the weather changes from Nice to Pouring Rain... you were able to make the pickup prior to the weather change. Again... kinda weird... but that is how the LRB handles it...

Tim

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 7:06 pm

Actually Tim you got the rulebook wrong ... sorry mate.

After both teams have set up follow this sequence in the order given; place the ball on the pitch, roll on the Kick-Off table, scatter ball, resolve
Kick-Off results, bounce ball.

NOW that part about bounce ball .... in that bounce ball is the ball coming down out of the sky to land in that square that you scattered to.

So for Weather Change it would be

Weather is Blizzard
Scatter Ball ... Ball is going to land on top of one of your players
Resolve .. weather changes to Pouring Rain.
Bounce ... ball lands, you get -1 to the catch roll.

This is true with any of the kick-off results.

Galak

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 7:51 pm

This happened to us a couple of weeks ago too, we went with "Option B" as well.

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 7:56 pm

"The touchback can be awarded after a bounce or a scatter, so having the touchback resolved after the bounce gives it a defined spot in the order kick-offs are resolved."

Grimhael is correct, except that the Touchback is awarded after the BOUNCE always.

Here is the reasoning:
1) Ball is placed
2) Kick-Off Table Roll made
3) Roll Scatter. (Ball scatters off pitch.)
4) Resolve Kick-Off Results
5) Bounce Ball. (Oops! The ball is *already* off the pitch...it is a Touchback! Likewise, if the ball had *bounced* off the pitch. In this case, the ball was kicked high into the air way out of bounds; by the time it came down to bounce, it was already off the pitch. Therefore, when the ball actually LANDS, it is out of bounds.)

The bottom line is the "timing" is already inherent in the rules: a touchback doesn't happen until the ball LANDS out of bounds (ie bounces). A ball cannot bounce if it never hits the ground; when the scatter roll is made, the ball is still in the AIR, so a touchback CANNOT happen yet. It just so happens when a ball *scatters* out of bounds, we already KNOW it is going to also BOUNCE out of bounds once it LANDS. Until it LANDS, there is no Touchback. If it were done the OTHER way, not only would it be ignoring the timing inherent in the RULES, it would make results like BLITZ! and Quick Snap! that much more ridiculously powerful. It would also make little logical sense; a Touchback is awarded for the ball LANDING out of bounds (or any *other* illegal LANDING spot).

Again, until the ball BOUNCES (ie LANDS), there is NOT a Touchback. Not only is this the RULE, it makes sense from a logical standpoint as well. Imagine the scatter roll not only in terms of *distance*, but consider HANG TIME as well. So a ball that lands on the Kicking Team's side of the pitch was obviously kicked very HIGH, straight up into the air (ie little to no distance) - the SCATTER roll; however, until it comes back down and LANDS - the BOUNCE roll, there is NO Touchback. The Kick-Off resolution all happens BETWEEN hang time (scatter roll) and landing of the ball (bounce roll). Therefore, a Touchback can NEVER be awarded before the Kick-Off has been resolved; the ball hasn't LANDED yet.

From LRB:

"A kick-off must land in the opponents’ half of the
playing field. Assuming the ball lands in the receiving
team’s half of the field, then it will either land in an
empty square or a square occupied by a player. If the
ball lands in an empty square it will bounce one more
square (see Bouncing Balls on page 14). If the ball
lands on a square occupied by a player, the player
must try to catch the ball (see Catching the Football on
page 14). If the ball scatters or bounces off the field or
into the kicking team’s half, the receiving coach is
awarded a ‘touchback’ and may give the ball to any
player in his team."

This is the problem: verbage. They start by using Land and Lands, then finish by saying "scatters or bounces" instead of using continuity and simply saying LANDS. It is obvious they meant LANDS, and including "scatters" simply confuses the topic. Still, they use land and lands exclusively with the one exception of "scatter." This, coupled with the logic being used, can only mean they were indicating LANDS. It simply needs to be reworded LANDS as per the rest of the paragraph, and there is no confusion. It should be clear what they meant.

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:15 pm

This discussion does bring up another interesting rule: what happens if a Player near the LOS or sideline FAILS to Catch the Kick-Off (this applies if you are using forced Catches or not), and it scatters out of bounds or onto the Kicking Team's side of the pitch? Is it a Touchback? Why or Why Not?

Considering the Catch takes place AFTER everything else on the Kick-Off, I should think a failed Catch that scatters out of bounds would be thrown in by the crowd as usual. In the case of a failed Catch scattering across the LOS to the Kicking Team's side, I should think the ball stays where it is; learn to Catch ya BUM!!

Thoughts?

SBG · Post by **SBG** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:23 pm

Considering the Catch takes place AFTER everything else on the Kick-Off, I should think a failed Catch that scatters out of bounds would be thrown in by the crowd as usual. In the case of a failed Catch scattering across the LOS to the Kicking Team's side, I should think the ball stays where it is; learn to Catch ya BUM!!

I can't find the thread, but I asked that a couple of weeks ago, and the official answer was : touchback. Can someone confirm this ?

Fred

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:36 pm

I'll answer my own question using the same logic in my first reply. The bottom line: continuity in verbage.

It needs to read LANDS, NOT scatters or bounces; that is both misleading AND incorrect.

If it read LANDS (as it should), not only is the confusion avoided, but my question is also answered.

Since the ball LANDED on a LEGAL target (ie a Player on the receiving Team), there can be NO Touchback if said Player fails to Catch it and it scatters to the Kicking Teams side or out of bounds. In this case, the ball LANDED on a LEGAL target; the *target* caused the secondary scatter. This would also apply if the ball landed on a space adjacent to the Player, then bounced onto the Player and he failed to Catch the bounce.

SBG · Post by **SBG** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:48 pm

I do agree with you Xynok, but that is just not what I was told. I too, think that if your guys can't catch the damn ball, they may as well just give it to one of my guys who will show them how...

Fred

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:50 pm

If that IS the OFFICIAL ruling, it makes the issue of Forced Catches all the more necessary.

Frankly, it makes no sense to rule that situation a Touchback using the very rules printed in the LRB; the ball DID LAND on a LEGAL target...the TARGET caused the secondary scatter.

Likewise, if the ball landed in an empty space adjacent to a Player, BOUNCED onto that Player, and the player failed to Catch it, resulting in a scatter out of bounds or across the LOS, THIS would be ruled a Touchback? Absurd.

The WHOLE POINT of a Touchback is that the ball LANDED in an area where it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Player from the Receiving Team to be. Just because the Player screws up, he shouldn't be REWARDED! It makes ZERO sense.

The last sentence of the paragraph that I lifted from LRB SHOULD read:

"As long as the ball LANDS in a space where a Player from the Receiving Team can make a play on it, it is a LEGAL kick; if the ball LANDS out of bounds or on the Kicking Team's side of the Pitch BEFORE a Player from the receiving Team can make a play on it, the receiving coach is awarded a Touchback."

Punishing the Kicking Team because the Receiving Player screwed up, or didn't bother to make a play on the ball, is ridiculous.