Block Or Piling On?

[DoubleSkulls]

Guard is a skill I look to get on one or two of my BOBs for their second skill choice, but I won't put it on a Piling On player.

My theory is that I'm not blitzing with him, and he's probably surrounded by the enemy, so guard is a good choice. Also my opponents, for some unknown reason don't like standing next to him, so at least this way he's a bit more useful when on his feet.

What would you take instead (3rd skill for Block/PO)? I thought about tackle - so he can really hammer blodgers - but he's so slow that I didn't think it worthwhile.


Ian

[shaniepoo]

Personaly i would go for block then later on maybe go for PO. I play against a big orc team in my league - 4 black orcs, 3 blitzers and 7 linmen - and any choice i get to take out a black orc il jump at (literaly). If you take PO then while you are on the ground prone it leaves you wide open to be fouled. This may not take you out of the game but it is a risk none the less. If your oponent rolls 'get the ref' and you lose, then each time that you PO they will run at your expensive black orc and 'SMACK' right between the legs!

[Munkey]

shaniepoo wrote:

If your oponent rolls 'get the ref' and you lose, then each time that you PO they will run at your expensive black orc and 'SMACK' right between the legs!

Get the ref isn't that common though and even then they've got to win. Unless they've got a Dirty Player they've got to add a few assists just to stand a reasonable chance of breaking the armour and then theres a good chance of only stunning him, all this effort against my BO will free up the rest of my team I reckon, as well as letting me foul more easily.

If things really get bad then for the time that the ref is 'got' I could stop piling on.

[Xynok]

You guys ARE using the new IGMEOY rules for fouling aren't you? You are also playing that NO SPPs are given for fouling, correct?

If you ARE using the new rules, and fouling is still significant in your games, I would LOVE to play you! Risk vs. Reward for fouling past the first one is simply too skewed; I think you are crazy to risk losing a Player for the game AND a TO for something that does pretty much nothing for you unless you get ridiculously lucky.

In other words, the drawback of PO is NOT being on the ground, but in your ability to knock the player down so you can even USE PO. Without Block, expect a LOT of pushes. Thus why I feel PO as a first skill is very risky, and would take Block or Guard instead. Still, because of their inherent ST, and what they are used for, Block is the skill of choice...you want to knock people down. PO is a secondary skill once they have mastered knocking people down (ie Block). Guard is great, but without Block, EXPECT to be on your back frequently, thus nullifying the skill completely...but ST 4 makes it very worthwhile as a 2nd skill. Block is simply too big for them, because their whole purpose is to knock people down.

[Skummy]

Has anyone tried getting Piling On and then Mighty Blow with a Black Orc? This would greatly speed up the accumulation of SPP's needed to get to the next level, which would of course be Block.

Fouling can still have a significant impact on a game if a coach dedicates himself to it. We have an Undead coach in our league who is getting Dirty Player as the first skill on all his Zombies. He doesn't really care if one of them is thrown out of the game, as he has plenty more in reserve. It is not winning him any friends, but it is proving to be effective.

[Xynok]

Trust me, I have seen those tactics more than a few times, and I agree they are effective. Essentially, you make sure it is your last action (as always), and especially if it is an "expendable" player (ie Zombie), it can work to your advantage. Still, you are taking the risk of losing players ON THE PITCH, and this can and WILL come back to haunt you. Also, even though it is a lowly Zombie, once gone for the game, he can kiss further SPPs goodbye.

Anyway, this is a different topic then we are discussing here, but I'm not saying Fouling isn't a valid tactic; it is simply limited.

My point is that you shouldn't be afraid of PO because you are worried about being fouled.

[Skummy]

I agree wholeheartedly. Piling On big guys have proven to be very effective in our league, and one of our players is continually threatening to develop a Piling On/Razor Sharp Fangs Minatour or Rat Ogre one of these days...

[Khrage]

We have one of those Piling On/RSF Rat Ogres in our league. And we use the IGMEOY rules, but we still award spps for fouling. It hasn't upset the balance as of yet, and we don't expect it to.

As for your thought process on giving your PO orc Guard, you have a good point Ian. I could see that as a third skill for a PO/Block orc.

Definitely tackle. Yeah he will not be around dogers that often, except of course the LOS elves who like to dodge away from contact. Also having a tack BOB on one end of the LOS can make your canny opponent choose to go to the other side (which is where you want him anyway ) It is all about out-positioning and out-maneuvering your opponent anyway, right?

Mighty blow is good as a back up third skill as well, as you will almost always be getting a +1 to the injury roll.

At this point my BoBs get very diverse. I choose a variety of skills to help out, such as Tackle, Mighty Blow, Guard, Pro, Dirty Player (keeps the IGMEOY in the right position) etc. Basically if you get a BoB this far he is going to be fine almost no matter what you choose.

[Munkey]

You guys ARE using the new IGMEOY rules for fouling aren't you? You are also playing that NO SPPs are given for fouling, correct?

If you ARE using the new rules, and fouling is still significant in your games, I would LOVE to play you! Risk vs. Reward for fouling past the first one is simply too skewed; I think you are crazy to risk losing a Player for the game AND a TO for something that does pretty much nothing for you unless you get ridiculously lucky.

Thats what I was trying to say, a Black Orc on the ground is fairly resistant to fouling anyway and without DP the risk of being sent off is not worth the reward.

If the BO is fouled I have the option of fouling back or letting the ref carry on watching my opponent meaning he'd be a fool (or very desperate) to carry on fouling.

The best course of action here of course depends on whether me and my opponent has dirty player and what else is going on on the pitch (ie. fouling is not likely to be the first action of the turn).

Although there are no SPPs for fouling Dirty Player brings the chances of causing a casualty up from about 5% vs AV 9 to around 17% and so can still be effective.

Of course the other point mentioned was that Get the Ref could allow your opponent risk free fouls against you, but as I pointed out this will not be particuarly common.

My point being that fouling can be an effective tactic against Piling On but I would (will) not be deterred from picking it for the risk of being fouled.

[Munkey]

Has anyone tried getting Piling On and then Mighty Blow with a Black Orc? This would greatly speed up the accumulation of SPP's needed to get to the next level, which would of course be Block.

I have thought about this but the combination of these two skills may yet be house ruled in our league as combining Piling On with Mighty Blow takes the casulaty rate up from 14% with just Piling On or 10% with just Mighty Blow to 23% in combination against AV 8. (and POn combined with Razor Sharp Fangs gives a casulaty rate of 35%). No one has tried this yet so we have not decided if this may unbalance the game or not but i'm not planning to push the issue.

As far as accelerated SPP accumulation goes this was the idea behind my original thread, on average I calculated that a BO with Piling On is roughly twice as likely to cause a casulty as one with Block, so POn may be a good choice first as it will help achieve the SPPs needed for the second skill (Block) more quickly.

But as noted there are several intangibles that are not measurable by statistics as a result of your BOs spending a significant amount of time lying down so these must be taken into account as well.

[JackDragna]

..to Zynok here. Block is the most important skill in the game for any player that can get it. Guard is great, but won't do much good if the guarder gets knocked over. Piling On doesn't mean much when you're forced to push a lot of people after rolling a block/pow. I have Block as the first skill for all of my Black Orcs and I wouldn't consider for a second giving them anything else before it unless I rolled doubles. Take block, then branch out into Guard/Mighty Blow/Piling On.

[DoubleSkulls]

Anyway, I think I can probably sum up my position as

Block - its better for the team (less TO's, get knocked down less)

Piling On - its better for the BOB (more SPPs -> much faster development)

So if you've got at least 4 TRR's PO is the prefered choice, as you should be able to reroll the odd both down result.

If you've got fewer TRRs then Block is probably better for the team to win more, but if you get lukcy the extra casualties may tip the balance in your favour.

If you don't play PO after the Av roll then I'd take block 1st anyway, as the tactical disadvantages overcome the strategic advantage. I would probably not even take PO and go for MB instead.

[Xynok]

I have obviously missed something in PO...is there a question to the ruling on when PO is used? How are the majority of Leagues that you know of ruling it? Considering that a skill can ALWAYS be used AFTER the dice are rolled, I cannot see how PO can be ruled any OTHER way then to allow its use AFTER the Armor Roll...the rules are very clear. (eg I break Armor without PO...of course I don't use it; Oops! I didn't break Armor...better Pile On this Git if it will make the difference...) This is NO different than using Mighty Blow (et al). Just because you have to place the Player Prone doesn't suddenly mean it is exempt from the "can use any skill AFTER a dice roll" rule. The only other stipulation to this rule is that you MUST be adjacent to the down Player (ie push back must follow up), but you have to decide to follow up BEFORE Armor Rolls anyway. Unless you are diberately going AGAINST the LRB, there is no other way to rule PO.

[DoubleSkulls]

Its a house rule. We do the same for DT too.

[Xynok]

Back to the topic at hand...

I played one of the Dwarf Teams in the League last night (always a joy; I killed his Blitzer with 32 SPPs, gave the other Blitzer a Niggler, and won in OT!!), and had this topic on my mind the whole time I played. Now, considering we are in our 2nd season, the fact that they were Dwarves wasn't a huge factor (ie most players at this point have Block if they have a skill). Here is what I noticed with the BOs:

Offense:

Block wasn't ever THAT big, because I had 2 dice (Powies, Dodge/Powies, Push rolled a LOT). Factor in seasonal progression, and the Block/Powie result amounts to nothing more than "CLANG! SCOWL!" anyway. Marginal at BEST. Piling On would have been better in almost every instance.

Defense:

Ahh, now HERE is where Block saved me. If I had chosen PO over Block, my BOs would have been on their ARSE all night. I would MUCH rather have them standing then to have a CHANCE at using PO.


Summary:

Block is by far the best first Skill for BOs, no question. PO is an AWESOME second skill IF you never plan on giving him Guard. Guard is enormous. I would give 2 BOs Guard, and the other 2 PO. If you ever get a BO to a third skill, give them Tackle, Mighty Blow, or Pro. On doubles give them Stand Firm if they have Guard, and Dodge or Frenzy if they have PO. If you DON'T start with Block, prepare to push OFTEN on offense, and EXPECT to be on your ARSE a LOT during defense.