Why do we need ageing?

[tchatter]

Zombie - are you serious????

Linemen have longer careers then Wide Receivers????

Ummmm... name me a lineman that is still playing, that Jerry Rice played with on the 'Niners that is roughly the same age or entered the league at about the same time.

There aren't many "old" linemen in the game of football.

And along these lines... what about Kickers??

The EXP system seems to advance all your starting players very quickly in the beginning, and seemed to increase them across the board. Instead of the MVP way where it was up to the coach to even out the distribution of SPPs so that one player wouldn't become a "super-star". Now that aspect is almost done for you.

I have a decent Norse team that almost every player had some form of SPPs, which I worked hard at distributing evenly, passing to the Lineman for his first TD instead of the Catcher next to him, etc... Now, though even if a player didn't do much of anything... he gets an SPP. When completions are only worth 1 SPP and doing nothing except maybe standing on the LOS all game is worth 1 SPP, something needs to change somewhere. I think that every player getting 1 SPP in their first game is a little much, it really starts to diminish the value of SPPs IMHO.

I like the MVP rule, and wish it would stay as is, maybe change to only 3 SPPs but to stay as is. Ageing, Skill advancement, and MVP's need to be 3 seperate things.

I like the idea of ageing after a certain number of games, but the number of games needs to be a random number, to simulate different players aging at different rates. And it needs to be kept seperate from skill advancement.

[GalakStarscraper]

I like the idea of ageing after a certain number of games, but the number of games needs to be a random number, to simulate different players aging at different rates.

Uh isn't that EXP? Aging after certian number of random games???

Look as a coach in my league put it. The EXP system is the best suggestion so far ... its getting a LOT of playtesting by SEVERAL different leagues.

I really don't think the EXP system lowers the value of a SPP. If anything distribution is even more important than before as I'm finding that teams that do a good job of spreading out SPPs get more out of the EXP points than other teams. Remember with no help, its going to take a player 15 games to get to 6 EXP = 6 SPPs so that's pretty far into the life of most teams.

Galak

[Ithilkir]

Remember with no help, its going to take a player 15 games to get to 6 EXP = 6 SPPs so that's pretty far into the life of most teams.

And we all know the average Blood Bowl player survives 4.4 games

[tchatter]

I just still see it as needing to be 3 seperate things.

1)MVP - I think that getting a random MVP at the end of a game is something that shouldn't be taken away. How many Plays of the Game are there in the NFL, and MVP's, and the Top Player of the Week.

2)Skill advancement. I don't think it should have anything to do with when you age, or how you wear and tear. You get better at something the more you do it. Which is exactly how the SPP system works.

3) Aging/EXP/Wear and Tear/Getting Old - whatever, I think that Niggling injuries take care of a lot of that, since that is wear and tear applied to a specific instance or injury. Comparing to the NFL, I think that there is a kicker that has played 20 seasons, which would be like 320 games. Just now he is being hobbled by an injury. Obviously in BB that needs to be toned down.

In the current EXP system when is the EARLIEST that a player could suffer aging? 3 games? 5 games? 10? I don't think that any player should age after only 3 games... especially if he hasn't even gotten a skill yet.

The only experience I have had with the EXP so far is in the WBBL, where I had 5 players get skill rolls, 3 directly as a result to the 1 SPP gained from EXP. None of those 3 players would have gotten a skill roll without it, or if one had gotten the MVP. Granted this was a weird case as the EXP was added in after already playing 3 games. So if it was used from the start they wouldn't be near a skill yet. But even before the game started I knew they would be getting a skill roll due to EXP, so I didn't even try to do anything special with them to get more SPPs. Which I think is a bad thing. I think the EXP system altered my strategy in this case.

Again, I am not against the EXP, as it hasn't been fully tested in a "right from game 1" league, but I guess if we are going to fix something that might not be broken... we should look at a few more options then just the ones on the table right now.

Just my thoughts...

[tchatter]

Ok so if a Blood Bowl player only survives 4.4 games... why do we need to increase turnover?

I guess a better question is what are we trying to ultimately introduce into the game? More player turnover? Lower TR teams? Slower growing teams?

One more thing to add... After 2 games with a Skaven team I have 13 SPPS. A GR with 5 (MVP), a SV 5 (MVP) and a Thrower (3 COM). So as I stated above if we were using the EXP in the REBBL, I could have at least 25 SPPs right? With 2 on each player and a Thrower 1 game away from a skill, just for playing, even if he fumbles every pass, or gets KO in the first turn.

I don't know, maybe I don't completely understand the EXP system, but I think it can alter the strategy of advancing your team, especially in the first 3 games.

[High & Mighty]

In the current EXP system when is the EARLIEST that a player could suffer aging? 3 games? 5 games? 10? I don't think that any player should age after only 3 games... especially if he hasn't even gotten a skill yet.

That is the one good thing. The earliest a player can age in the EXP system is after 7 games, and that means having rolled 2+,2+,3+,4+,5+,6 and then a 1 after their 7th game, which would be followed by the aging roll in which is is also possible nothing will happen. Plus, if all this did happen, it would mean the player got a skill roll after six games no matter what since 6EXPs=6SPPs.

[GalakStarscraper]

Ok so if a Blood Bowl player only survives 4.4 games... why do we need to increase turnover?

I think this stat was tongue in cheek as its not real.

I guess a better question is what are we trying to ultimately introduce into the game? More player turnover? Lower TR teams? Slower growing teams?

Yes/Yes/No

Also reading your comments, it sounds like you think the EXPs are automatic after each game. You do realize that you need to roll to get them correct?

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

In the current EXP system when is the EARLIEST that a player could suffer aging? 3 games? 5 games? 10? I don't think that any player should age after only 3 games... especially if he hasn't even gotten a skill yet.

Game 7 is the absolute earliest and a player can NEVER age before having a skill in the EXP system.

The only experience I have had with the EXP so far is in the WBBL.

That's about to change I think you'll be happy to know. The WBBL is going back to MVPs for a while. Both the WBBL and MBBL2 might change back to EXPs at some point but for now both leagues have decided to wait until we see the official experimental rules for EXP in print by GW.

Again, I am not against the EXP, as it hasn't been fully tested in a "right from game 1" league, but I guess if we are going to fix something that might not be broken... we should look at a few more options then just the ones on the table right now.
Just my thoughts...

The LRB aging IS DEFINITELY broken in my opinion. Linking skill gains to aging is just a great way to make players dread skill rolls which is supposed to be a fun part of development ... no no no thank you. So it needs fixed. Many argue how, but its definitely not a case of trying to fix something not broken.

Galak

[Toby]

Galak Pardon me did you youst say the LRB is broken ?

omg ^^

btw you are perfectly right with your statement.

IMHO the whole Ageing thing could be verry easiliy handled by simply reducing AV from time to time (Ageing don't now what to trigger it but not a Star Player Roll thats lame ) So aged players have little AV and get beaten up all the time. Thats simple Bloody and its kind of like the "real world." Well althoug im not sure about the real world these days maybe i should go there for a Holiday

[Ghost of Pariah]

Personally I hate the idea of an artificial ageing system at all. I like the EXP only marginally better than the current system. I think they both have weaknesses. When you try force death and retirement you are going to get odd results. That's just the nature of it.

I liked the current system (as well as I'll like any system) but it had probelems with first skill ageing. The EXP system is nice but it looks like linemen are going to aquire skills as a whole much faster than before. I mnow Galak will chime in here with some snore worth statistic that the number of spp's on the team is about the same and bla bal bla but the fact remains that after 2 or 3 games most of the linemen are alot closer to getting skills then with the normal method. Most linemen spend their lives at one (or less than one) skill and take forever to get there. This new way lets more linemen get that skill much faster. I don't know how this will change the game (and neither Galak the mad supporter of this method) so extensive testing is need. I.E. more than 12 games.

[Zombie]

Tchatter, i don't follow the NFL, so i can't talk about that, but in the CFL, receivers start thinking about retiring when they get about 30, while linemen can easily play up to 40.

Last year (not the season that just finished, but the one before that), two of the Montreal Alouettes' best players retired and went on to describe games on TV. Baron Miles, a receiver, was in his early 30s. Pierre Vercheval, a lineman, was in his early 40s. Neither had to retire due to serious injuries, their time had just come. This year, the kicker on the team is retiring. He's about 40.

When you get old, you can't run quite as fast (pretty bad for a receiver), but you can still block just as well (probably better since you usually gain weight with age and experience is also a big factor).

[Dragoonkin]

OT, I love how Edmonton lost their first Grey Cup touchdown for a stupid Facemask penalty.

[Ithilkir]

And we all know the average Blood Bowl player survives 4.4 games

It was a joke reference to 2e Blood Bowl, I'm sure players survive for much longer

[GalakStarscraper]

Galak Pardon me did you youst say the LRB is broken ?

omg ^^

btw you are perfectly right with your statement.

In comparison to a better method like the EXP rules, yes the LRB aging rules are broken. I've seen too many Elves fail their first aging roll on the first game of a rookie team. This is definitely NOT what the aging rules in the LRB were aiming for. The goal was to encourage team turnover of older teams. The first game of a rookie team is not the place to install team reducing items. At least with EXP I get a minimum 7 games before I even have to consider aging.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

I mnow Galak will chime in here with some snore worth statistic

Actually had no intention of doing so.

Most linemen spend their lives at one (or less than one) skill and take forever to get there. This new way lets more linemen get that skill much faster. I don't know how this will change the game (and neither Galak the mad supporter of this method) so extensive testing is need. I.E. more than 12 games.

Agreed on both thoughts. Lineman are put into a better position to skill up to that first skill. However as was pointed out to me by someone looking long term, the removal of the prettiest lineman (ie the lineman who nails 2 to 3 MVPs in the first few games) means that lineman rarely if ever see the 2nd skill with EXP. So I agree it faciliates the first while depriving the 2nd. I've seen enought results already to agree with this statment.

I also agree that a league running more than 12 games is needed. Thankfully several tabletop leagues are testing EXP also, so I don't think that will be an issue.

So I agree with you on both counts. However I would mention that the MBBL will have run out 18 games by next review with EXP since I went back and reveiwed every game in the MBBL's history to properly roll and apply EXP points retroactively to the MBBL just for you. So that we could have 18 games under the rules since you didn't think 12 was enough.

Galak