So, what's the verdict on the new ally rules?

BullBear · Post by **BullBear** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:21 pm

Just got BBMag#3, and the ally rules seem balanced and workable to me. Have any leagues playtested this, with positive results, before I sink $$$ into a mixed-race team?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:35 pm

They are border line at best.

The MBBL got rid of Dark Elves from the Chaos Pact and High Elves from the Old World by Chet's request.

Then we reduced the 0-4 second player slot to 0-2.

This team seems to be working.

The one other change I'd make I "think" is to go back to only allowing the pact team one Big Guy. I'm waiting to see if this is true. Pariah doing his best to prove it ... so we wait and see.

Galak

Post by **Dave** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:25 pm

Our chaos team (5 Marauders, 3 Beastmen, DE thrower, Gutter Runner , Black Orc) has played 2 games this far.

Won one and lost one (Gobbo's, Vampires)

Can't really say anything about it yet ..

Post by **Dave** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:27 pm

Just a quick question :

Would the other players (BO, DE thrower, Marauder) be allowed to choose Physical Abilities on doubles ??

There's something to say for both Yes (it's chaos after all) and No (might make them overly strong )

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:37 pm

Dave wrote:There's something to say for both Yes (it's chaos after all) and No (might make them overly strong )

IIRC there used to be Chaos Goblins in 3rd ed WFB who did mutuate because they lived near the Chaos Wastes. So the fluff answer would be yes. Gameplay no - its too much of an advantage to an already strong team.

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:57 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:They are border line at best.

The MBBL got rid of Dark Elves from the Chaos Pact and High Elves from the Old World by Chet's request.

Huzzah! Good idea. I've been thinking about these teams over the last couple of days, as I'm just now painting up a couple of Halflings to attatch to my ever-growing dwarf team (with them in place it is usable with Old World rules because I already have a bunch of Humans for adapting th eteam to the Dungeonbowl rosters).

GalakStarscraper wrote: Then we reduced the 0-4 second player slot to 0-2.

Can't say I like this. Might help if I understood the rationale behind it.
Maybe I'm biased, because my line up had 4 longbeards and a Dwarf Blitzer, because I likes the idea of a roughly 50-50 dwarf-human team (with Ogre and Halflings). I'm testing against GoldPenguin's Wood Elves. 0-0 at half time. My Ogre has been the anti-MVP thus far (three failed Bonehead rolls and a fumbled Halfling), which may colour my view, but I don't think there's any balance problem there. Possible to argue against that we are playing rookie teams, and its development that is the problem. I'd agree to a point as well (the point being I want no pointy eared scum anywhere near my team, not even to use my lovely second ed. Elf Blitzer model.) I'm guessing some people are wetting themselves over the idea of 6 Longbeards and an Ogre making holes for a pair of Wood Elves with a human Thrower passing the ball?

As far as I'm concerned you can the Wood Elves as well and I'm still happy...the thought of which led me to a new idea (more on that in a moment).

GalakStarscraper wrote: The one other change I'd make I "think" is to go back to only allowing the pact team one Big Guy. I'm waiting to see if this is true. Pariah doing his best to prove it ... so we wait and see.

I agree with this adaption too, having played a game against Pariah myself (though I was playing COFAB Vampires - badly). Pariah scraped an OT win by clearing the pitch of Bloodsuckers, while using three big guys. A bit overkill. Really though I don't see why the Chaos Pact should get more than one big Guy when noone else does (DON'T mention the AllStars fluff.)

That idea? Ditch the Pact rosters as they stand, which people seem to be worried offer a little TOO much variety, and bring in something more like the old DUngeonbowl rosters...
primary, secondary, tertiary races. EG
up to two positional players from Primary race (0-12), one from the secondary race(0-6), none from the third (0-2).

Old World: 1=Humans, 2=Dwarfs, 3=Halflings. BG=Ogre.
Chaos Warband: 1=Norse, 2=Chaos, 3=Skaven. BG=Ogre OR Minotaur.
Underworld Creepers: 1=Skaven, 2=Goblins, 3=More Goblins BG=Troll.
Cruelty Alliance: 1=Dark Elf, 2=Skaven. No BG (DE refuse to allow ROs).

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:06 pm

You can have an old world team with 6 longbeards and thats nasty.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:11 pm

i was never too keen on the allies thing. Seems some teams benefited greatly, whereas other teams had nothing to gain.

I remeber playing against a chaos team with 4 chaos warriors, a skaven gutter runner, a dark elf thrower, an ogre, a minotaur lord borak, morgn'thorg and blackhoof.

YIPES:.

Would you like som more cheese on that bruger..

I also recall my wood elf team having no other allies than hafling..
Nedless to say, I counted that as having no allies.
High Elves also lost out sadly, and at this time, they really were underdogs as well.

Bottom line, if allies are to be taken into the game again, they have to make them balanced. Otherwise, it'll just upset the balance between the teams. And as I see it, they are balanced now.

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:15 pm

I know. I want the Longbeards as is, because I think 6 is too many, but I'd like to be able to take a Dwarf positional player too.

Here's an idea:
The list adds "0-1 Human position player" and "0-1 Dwarf position player" (0-1 Norse position player and 0-1 Chaos Warrior for the Chaos team), or allows 0-2 position players from those races (so you COULD take two human position players or two Dwarf position players etc etc) and allows NO other position players. Wood Elves would have to be linemen, no Black orcs, no Wardancers etc etc.

Would that be workable?

vorner23 · Post by **vorner23** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:54 pm

I'm testing a Chaos Pact team in the WoP open. Other players are trying the Old World version.

The first few results were a bit of mixed bag. But the team has started both winning and growing. Now the list includes a DE thrower, Gutter runner, Troll, Minotaur, and ogre.

The total cost of the team is getting huge. Now this line up is pretty daunting but not unbeatable. Without skills the team is very easy to turnover, but once they start developing them i suspect they will be all but unstoppable.

The only great weakness I can see in a league format is the reliance on single specialised positions. If the star gutter runner dies, then he has no other replacement. Thus a new Gutter runner would have to be started completely anew.

Obviously the high RR cost is a consideration..... and the chaos team will rarely start with more than 1 or 2. During the season 180k is pretty heavy!

So for the time being I reserve judgement, till the team has played more. But I suspect that after a few seasons no-one will want to play them! Still I will have to wait and see.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:11 pm

Thadrin wrote: A bit overkill. Really though I don't see why the Chaos Pact should get more than one big Guy when noone else does (DON'T mention the AllStars fluff.)

The Experimental Skeleton team has four big guys without negative traits...

That idea? Ditch the Pact rosters as they stand, which people seem to be worried offer a little TOO much variety, and bring in something more like the old DUngeonbowl rosters...
primary, secondary, tertiary races. EG
up to two positional players from Primary race (0-12), one from the secondary race(0-6), none from the third (0-2).

Not a bad idea at all. You could dedicate a thread for these under "New Concepts"...

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:57 pm

They suck and all of those teams (except maybe the lustrians, but that's not even sure) are overpowered. That's the verdict.

Don't expect them to become official. GW wouldn't want to lose half of their customers.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:06 pm

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with Zpmbo for once. I don't like the new allied teams, way too much. They seem to much like the old 2ed Chaos All-Stars and I never liked them either (way too overpawered).

Scott King · Post by **Scott King** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:36 am

I'm playing the Lustrians in the MBBL, and I certainly don't think they're overpowered. Of course, I have only come up against two Chaos Pact teams so far, so my final judgement is out on whether they're balanced against the standard teams.

I do have to agree with Galak, I think three BIg Guys on one team is waaay overkill. Why should Chaos Pact get access to such an advantage that no other team does? Sure, they should have access to a bigger range of Big Guys, but only one at a time. Same for the other allies. With this said, I am overall timidly optimistic that Allied teams can work, but the trial period is just not long enough yet.

vorner23 · Post by **vorner23** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:18 pm

I got to say, i really love the idea of an ultimate team.

With 3 big guys specialist positional players of every race, in fact all the best players that money can buy. The chaos all stars were very very cool.

However, are they balanced? Will the TR actually reflect the play value of the team.... well the more i play with my team the less i think so.

In the WoP league they are allowed, and being very new these teams aren't invinsible. Come 10 games down the road.... i think they will be.

Perhaps the easiest way to limit the impact would be simply to limit to 1 big guy. Then the exorbitant cost of RR might level the playing field enough.