turnover 4 minute rule

[bbdave522]

seems like rolling the block is out of order
start your action
roll bonehead
declare action "Block"
Count up the overall strength
roll the blocking dice

Actually, you have the order wrong. Corrected, it is:
1. Declare a Block Action
2. Roll Bonehead
3. Count up relative Strengths (although most and I daresay all experienced coaches and in fact any coach that knows how to play have already done this)
4. Roll Block Dice

That is the order "By the Book."

Effectively, the order which most coaches do it in is this:
1. Count up relative Strengths
2. Declare a Block Action
3. Roll Bonehead
4. Roll Block Dice

All Digger is doing is combining steps 3 and 4. However, the proper order still applies (the Bonehead result is checked before the block dice result). Obviously, if the Bonehead fails then the block dice are disregarded. If anything intercedes between step three and step 4 (i.e. rerolling Bonehead) then the dice rolled for step 4 are disregarded (as it technically has not occurred yet). I don't mean to be rude but this system is extremely obviously fair. It may sound bad at first (although I didn't think so, but to each his own), but if you will take a moment to think you should quickly see that it is perfectly fair. I would not use this system nor let my opponent without prior agreement/understanding, because rolling multiple dice could be abused, but under this sort of understanding it is a perfectly acceptable and fair (and might even speed up the game). Everyone claiming that this is somehow abusable or somehow bad either misunderstands the system or is ignoring the facts in favor of a rather childish (no offense meant) view of "I just don't like it, just because I don't"

[Xeterog]

no, it is not fair at all.

Say I am blocking with bonehead..I roll the dice together and get

3, SKULL, SKULL

I passed the BH roll, but I see that i'm going to go down..so I decide to try and ReRoll the Bonehead roll, thus RR'ing the Block dice as well...because no matter what I roll, it won't be worse than what I already have....

[Fassbinder75]

no, it is not fair at all.

Say I am blocking with bonehead..I roll the dice together and get

3, SKULL, SKULL

I passed the BH roll, but I see that i'm going to go down..so I decide to try and ReRoll the Bonehead roll, thus RR'ing the Block dice as well...because no matter what I roll, it won't be worse than what I already have....

While it is logically invalid, since the block result theoretically happens after the bonehead there's no reason for the player to re roll it, this method is a surefire way to cause arguments and crying.

Keep it simple. Resolve one decision point before the next.

[bbdave522]

no, it is not fair at all.

Say I am blocking with bonehead..I roll the dice together and get

3, SKULL, SKULL

I passed the BH roll, but I see that i'm going to go down..so I decide to try and ReRoll the Bonehead roll, thus RR'ing the Block dice as well...because no matter what I roll, it won't be worse than what I already have....

No, you would reroll the block dice... Just as though you had rolled the bonehead first and then rolled the double skulls. You do not get to reroll multiple rolls at once. The reason both the Bonehead and the block dice get rerolled is because the original block dice roll was irrelevant, as I have explained previously.

Think of it like this. What if every time I blitz the ball carrier, I throw block dice at the same time as throwing a d8 (scatter dice). Assuming I knock the other guy down, we already know where it scatters to. If I dont knock the other guy down, the d8 is an extra dice that means nothing.

Now lets say I roll double skulls. Obviously the d8 is useless. I reroll the double skulls (along with the d8 ) and the same thing applies to the reroll. If I knock the ball carrier down, the d8 represents scatter. If I don't, then the d8 represents ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

I will point out before someone else does that this situation would not work, as the scatter location could affect your pushback decision. In this case, there is an interruption between the dice rolls, so the system would fail. Otherwise your logic is good.

[Old Man Draco]

no, it is not fair at all.

Say I am blocking with bonehead..I roll the dice together and get

3, SKULL, SKULL

I passed the BH roll, but I see that i'm going to go down..so I decide to try and ReRoll the Bonehead roll, thus RR'ing the Block dice as well...because no matter what I roll, it won't be worse than what I already have....

Since when are you allowed to reroll a succesfoll dice roll?

If you succeed Bonehead, then you get to reroll the blockdice, not the Bonehead dice.

As pointed before, if you Roll

1, POW, POW. You have to reroll ALL the dice. Bye bye nice clear Pows.

I really don't see your problem here.

[bbdave522]

Since when are you allowed to reroll a succesfoll dice roll?

TEAM RE-ROLLS
Team re-rolls represent how well trained a team is. A coach may
use a team re-roll to re-roll any dice roll (other than Armour,
Injury or Casualty rolls) made by a player in their own team and
who is still on the pitch during their own turn (even if the dice roll
was successful). The result of the new roll must be accepted in
place of the first, even if it is worse. A coach may not use more
than one Re-roll counter per turn, and may not use a Re-roll
counter to force the opposing coach to re-roll a dice roll.

Although rerolling a successful Bone-head roll is so far beyond idiotic that I cannot call it anything except... Bone-headed!

[daloonieshaman]

GREAT EXAMPLE!
of why advance rolling does not work

you block the ball carrier
he moves to a square either of you choose depending on skills
you then must decide to follow up
then roll armor/injury/scatter

Follow Up Moves: A player who has made a block is allowed to
make a special follow up move and occupy a square vacated by
the player that they have pushed back. The player’s coach must
decide whether to follow up before any other dice rolls are made.

A player who is carrying the ball and who is knocked down or
placed prone will drop the ball in the square where they fall. The
dropped ball will bounce one square in a random direction (see
Bouncing Balls, page 13) after the player's armour and injury
rolls (if any) are fully resolved

see the difference

hmm the ball will bounce into his players hands way outside, nah I won't follow up so I can move around and put a tackle zone on him
v/s crap now I have to make a few dodges to get next to the new ball carrier

by the way
Declare a Block/Blitz/Pass/HO/Foul/TTM
Then roll Bone Head, Really Stupid, Wild Animal
Reason is if you fail your trait you do nothing and the action gets lost and in most cases the rest of the team can not use that action (other than Block)
IF you decide at the point to re-roll
There is another Roll that has a HUGE effect in this whole equation that seems to have been overlooked
LONER
So not only are you rolling TRAIT, you use your re-roll, then roll LONER, to re-roll TRAIT

That is 3 rolls before you roll an ACTION (1 if you pass your TRAIT)

So the crucial decision making is in the effects of the first roll, after that you may have many successes or the wheels may fall off the cart. But you cannot see what is behind door #1 before you have made a decision and taken action with the current die roll

[Old Man Draco]

Since when are you allowed to reroll a succesfoll dice roll?

TEAM RE-ROLLS
Team re-rolls represent how well trained a team is. A coach may
use a team re-roll to re-roll any dice roll (other than Armour,
Injury or Casualty rolls) made by a player in their own team and
who is still on the pitch during their own turn (even if the dice roll
was successful). The result of the new roll must be accepted in
place of the first, even if it is worse. A coach may not use more
than one Re-roll counter per turn, and may not use a Re-roll
counter to force the opposing coach to re-roll a dice roll.

Although rerolling a successful Bone-head roll is so far beyond idiotic that I cannot call it anything except... Bone-headed!

Can I reroll this!

[Fassbinder75]

The fact that this thread has gone three pages is testament enough as to why combining multiple decision points, while logically sound is practically more trouble than its worth.

Even if you wanted to re-roll the successful bonehead die you can't because you've rolled the subsequent block dice already.

[daloonieshaman]

Kickoff on the line of scrimmage lands in your catchers hands
he catches it right next to the opponent BIG murphy
if he rerolls his catch it may bouces offsides and the thrower nice and safe in the back may get the ball handed to hm by the refs

second frenzy block with push-push (it is a success but maybe you want the guy down)

I have no answer at this time why you would want to re-roll a successful TRAIT roll

[Mr. Nuffle]

Another reason.

You declare.
Then you roll BH.

Keep in mind if you declare a Blitz and roll a 1 on your BH, you effectively loose the blitz and cannot use it for another team-member.

Also, you cannot "roll back" time or sequence of play.

If you wish to re-roll a roll, then you must declare it after the roll has been made and not after you have decided upon another action ... like blocking.

So once the BH is over and you moved on to the Blockdice - you forfeited the rights to re-roll your BH-Roll.

[bbdave522]

daloonieshaman,

I hae already mentioned that said system does not work in said circumstance. And I don't think anyone has forgotten Loner. What you don't seem to get is that this is not some set in stone system that can never be violated. It is a specific case where for the sake of rolling expediency more than one roll is made at once. So long as no further decision has to be made after the first roll but prior to the second, there is no difference between this system and rolling one after the other. If, after the first roll but prior to the second, some decision must be made, the second roll is meaningless. Example: He fails Bonehead. The second dice roll is ignored, even if he decides to reroll Bonehead. Now here is what happens from a pure rules perspective:
1. He declares a block.
2. He rolls Bonehead- Bonehead roll failed!
3. He rolls 2 block dice for no reason- result irrelevant
4. He chooses whether or not to reroll Bonehead
5. Continue with the game (I think you get the idea)

Clear-cut. Always works. Two consecutive rolls with no decision between them can be made at the same time, effectively the time between the two rolls is 0 seconds. If some decision is to be made, then they cannot be rolled at the same time. I have never had people argue like this about something so simple (except for when a local league thought the +1 to dodge rolls only applied when dodging to no TZs, so they said AG 3 to no TZs is a 3+ roll but AG 3 to one TZ is a 5+... but that's another story from back on the old SG forum).

[Darkson]

Everyone claiming that this is somehow abusable or somehow bad either misunderstands the system or is ignoring the facts in favor of a rather childish (no offense meant) view of "I just don't like it, just because I don't"

I don't like it because if, under this system you roll a "1" and a double skulls, and reroll it, instinctively I feel you're les fated to roll a 2nd double skulls. Statistically, you may have exactly the same chance (?), but I'm human, which means I go by instinct and gut feeling more than I do by cold maths, and I'd much perfer my opponent to resolve the bonehead and "save" the double skulls roll.

[daloonieshaman]

SO are you saying
Player declares Block
Rolls BH & block together
fails BH
chooses to re-roll BH
Then rolls block again because he decided to re-roll BH?

or are you suggesting his block stands?

[bbdave522]

I have faith that Nuffle will cause them to roll exactly as he intended (which was probably to fail the bonehead, because only a very desperate coach rerolls a trait on a Loner). Still, you have to admit that such a view is ignoring the facts. On the same principle touching the dice, moving your hand, heck even a guy in China breathing affects what the dice will roll vs what they would have under different circumstances. That doesn't mean that all such things are bad, as they are all random factors that cannot be accounted for beforehand.