Narrow-Tier Blood Bowl

[Alamar]

Khemri buffs:

What system(s) did you use to come up with the Khemri buffs and how much of a buff were you shooting for???

From looking at their players I'm a little surprised you didn't adjust some of the costs downards.

For example:

-- The Khemri Thro-Ra is the same price as a Human Thrower with one less AG [huge] and one less AV [big seeing this is a ball carrier]. I'd say Thick Skull and a price of 60K may not be bad at all.

-- The Blitz-Ra is the same price as a Human Blitzer with one fewer MV and one fewer AG. Giving them Thick Skull is great but lowering costs to 80K seems fair to me too.

As far as the Tomb Guardians go I will take you at your word / playtesting that taking off Decay is fine. All that I know is that the Khemri team that I play in "legacy" is fairly tough and would put a hurting on bash-only-teams if the TGs didn't die at regular intervals

To summarize if you raise the costs of TGs [by taking off Decay] then lowering the costs of other positionals might help balance things out .... A lot of it depends on just how much of a buff you're going for though.

EDIT: Lowering the costs of RRs is handy for the team

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
thanks for your replies.
Unfortunately I won't be able to reply until a week from now.
Cheers
Martin

[spubbbba]

Khemri buffs:
From looking at their players I'm a little surprised you didn't adjust some of the costs downards.

For example:

-- The Khemri Thro-Ra is the same price as a Human Thrower with one less AG [huge] and one less AV [big seeing this is a ball carrier]. I'd say Thick Skull and a price of 60K may not be bad at all.

-- The Blitz-Ra is the same price as a Human Blitzer with one fewer MV and one fewer AG. Giving them Thick Skull is great but lowering costs to 80K seems fair to me too.

You're forgetting one huge difference, those Khemri players have regeneration. So not only do they only suffer 1/2 the injuries that their human equivalents do but they can play the rest of the game too.

[Alamar]

You're forgetting one huge difference, those Khemri players have regeneration. So not only do they only suffer 1/2 the injuries that their human equivalents do but they can play the rest of the game too.

Actually I'm not forgetting the difference at all ....

Looked at another way the Khemri Blitz-Ra is the same cost with the exact same skills as a Necro or Undead Wight but has one less AG. Giving the player Thick Skull & making them 10K cheaper is reasonable to me.

Then with the above logic if the Blitz-Ra has TS and is 80K then the Thro-Ra could be 60K with TS and I would be fine with that.

Now with 40K less cost in those positionals that would offset the Tomb Guardians extra 10K cost per fig.

Lower cost for RRs would be icing on the cake.

Devil's Advocate: I'm not wild about taking Decay off the TGs. 4 of the 5 deaths that I've had were from Decay and that's what kept those guys in check. 4 ST 5 MB, Guard, Stand Firm guys [and a couple with Block added] are tough to deal with.

[Kort]

Actually, it is not so much about Blitz-Ra and Thro-Ra being overcosted as it is about Wight and Human Thrower being undercosted. While the Undead could (and should, in my opinion) definitely do without the price break, the Humans rely on it to be competitive. The Khemri, whose record under the LRB6 rules seems to be almost as good as the Humans and whose roster possesses extraordinary characteristics, is not necessarily entitled to such a favor.

[mattgslater]

... Wight ... being undercosted.

I snorted coffee out my nose when I read that somebody thinks that the Wight is undercosted.

[Alamar]

Actually, it is not so much about Blitz-Ra and Thro-Ra being overcosted as it is about Wight and Human Thrower being undercosted. While the Undead could (and should, in my opinion) definitely do without the price break, the Humans rely on it to be competitive. The Khemri, whose record under the LRB6 rules seems to be almost as good as the Humans and whose roster possesses extraordinary characteristics, is not necessarily entitled to such a favor.

I'm sorry but I can't really agree with you about the Blitz-Ra and Thro-Ra costs.

If you think the Blitz-Ra is "undercosted" then what Blitzers are the right cost??? As I look around at on-the-field performance the Blitz-Ra is easily the worst of the bunch but his costs are 90K which puts him in the fairly expensive category. Now IMHO it's the Orc Blitzer with +1 AV, +1 AG and costs 10K less than the Blitz-Ra that is comparatively underpriced.

As far as the Thro-Ra goes if you make adjustments to the Blitz-Ra then it's easy enough to justify the same thing be done to the Thro-Ra. Even if you don't do that then what "Thrower" type of position on any team is priced right.

In summary it's my contention that the Blitz-Ra and the Throw-Ra are the worst [by a large margin] on-the-field performers at their position of ANY other similar positional in the game but the team has to pay full cost for them. In a house-rules section where you're trying to buff Khemri I think lowering their costs is a very reasonable thing to look at first.

[Kort]

... Wight ... being undercosted.

I snorted coffee out my nose when I read that somebody thinks that the Wight is undercosted.

I cannot believe it myself but see for yourself: http://www.midgardbb.com/BBTeamCostAnalysis.htm

The main reason is that Regeneration is considered as 30k skill.

[Kort]

I'm sorry but I can't really agree with you about the Blitz-Ra and Thro-Ra costs.

That's fine, but do the math yourself: http://www.midgardbb.com/NewBBTeamBuildingGuide.html
Note that I do not consider those guidelines perfect, I even think that they are deeply flawed at times. But they are still a good benchmark, and deviations from them should be backed up by facts.

If you think the Blitz-Ra is "undercosted" then what Blitzers are the right cost??? As I look around at on-the-field performance the Blitz-Ra is easily the worst of the bunch but his costs are 90K which puts him in the fairly expensive category. Now IMHO it's the Orc Blitzer with +1 AV, +1 AG and costs 10K less than the Blitz-Ra that is comparatively underpriced.

I agree with that. Orc, Human and Skaven Blitzers are undercosted to give their sides an edge. Humans and Sakvens have understrength positions they need to protect. Orcs do not deserve the price break since they have a great lineup already. Since the Khemri have 4 ST5 players, they are not necessarily entitled to the same treatment.

As far as the Thro-Ra goes if you make adjustments to the Blitz-Ra then it's easy enough to justify the same thing be done to the Thro-Ra. Even if you don't do that then what "Thrower" type of position on any team is priced right.

I am against adjusting the Blitz-Ra as stated above but I would agree to a 10k price break for the Thro-Ra. The Pass skill is almost useless with universal AG2 and should come for free.

In summary it's my contention that the Blitz-Ra and the Throw-Ra are the worst [by a large margin] on-the-field performers at their position of ANY other similar positional in the game but the team has to pay full cost for them. In a house-rules section where you're trying to buff Khemri I think lowering their costs is a very reasonable thing to look at first.

I think it is impossible to balance a side with 4 ST5 players anyway. A very reasonable thing to look at first is the other teams, nerfing and boosting them if necessary. Kehmri is not doing that bad in LRB6 anyway (See http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB6Stats.htm), so they may end up doing better than expected.

[Alamar]

... Wight ... being undercosted.

I snorted coffee out my nose when I read that somebody thinks that the Wight is undercosted.

I cannot believe it myself but see for yourself: http://www.midgardbb.com/BBTeamCostAnalysis.htm

The main reason is that Regeneration is considered as 30k skill.

I agree with some of what you're trying to say ... that's why I couched my statements in terms of "on the field" performance seeing that Regen occurs off the field

I am not trying to argue that Khemri "should" get a buff ... I'm just saying that since the OP buffed them I was wondering why he chose the buffs that he did. This negates some of the points that you're trying to make.

Now when getting down to a cost analysis for teams the formulas used on the page are good for a basic profile player but the attempt to make a one size fits all formula where synergies / positions / function on the team are not taken into account creates big holes in the system.

Plus if you look at the exact chart that you gave me almost every team that has Blitzers has 10K or more knocked off the price. Humans, Dwarves, High Elves, Orcs, Skaven, Dark Elves, Undead, Wood Elves, etc. all have 10K or higher discounts on all their Blitzers.

Now given that GW [in general] makes Blitzers less expensive than the formula calculates if you're going to Buff Khemri anyway then why not give their Blitzer position [which doesn't receive a discount] some form of a discount??? Why not discount the games worst on-the-field Blitzer??

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Note: I'm not wild about changing player SKILL or STAT profiles when trying to nerf or buff a team. Based on that going after costs in some form or another is often going to be my favorite way of doing things.

[Kort]

Now when getting down to a cost analysis for teams the formulas used on the page are good for a basic profile player but the attempt to make a one size fits all formula where synergies / positions / function on the team are not taken into account creates big holes in the system.

Actually, this argument supports my point of view. Khemri has 4 ST5 players, which clearly breaks the system. Despite every player on the team being subpar, they still perform reasonably well, probably because they are able to maim the opposition even if they fail to handle the ball.

Plus if you look at the exact chart that you gave me almost every team that has Blitzers has 10K or more knocked off the price. Humans, Dwarves, High Elves, Orcs, Skaven, Dark Elves, Undead, Wood Elves, etc. all have 10K or higher discounts on all their Blitzers.

And all those teams, except the Humans, are above average. I would argue that you could be better off nerfing the teams that overperform first.

Now given that GW [in general] makes Blitzers less expensive than the formula calculates if you're going to Buff Khemri anyway then why not give their Blitzer position [which doesn't receive a discount] some form of a discount??? Why not discount the games worst on-the-field Blitzer??

Because Khemri has other advantages. See your first argument.

Note: I'm not wild about changing player SKILL or STAT profiles when trying to nerf or buff a team. Based on that going after costs in some form or another is often going to be my favorite way of doing things.

Unfortunately in many cases cost adjustements alone are not going to be sufficient to achieve a good balance. You may make the Human Catcher cheaper, so that you can afford a deeper bench or one more team reroll, but the bugger will still fail catch a simple hand-off 1 in 9 times no matter what.

[Alamar]

@Kort: I think we're better off agreeing to disagree. The OP has chosen to try to limit nerfs and buff the teams at the low end. I have chosen not to argue with this point and am only curious as to why the buffs that were chosen happenned. You seem to be of the POV that the other teams should get nerfs to bring them down to level. Your POV is valid but doesn't particularly interest me.

I'm just wondering why [given that buffs will happen] costs weren't attacked first and then other options played with on an as-needed basis.

[plasmoid]

Quick reply:
I think khemri can be balanced. I think they're almost there, just a bit week.
I could have tweaked cost, but in my experience that has very limited effect.

I chose to give them thick skull, because they're the same player - simply better.
That's a clear buff, even if a small one.
I also chose that one because the linemen have thick skull, and it seems strange to me that positional skeletons don't have it too.

I dumped the reroll price to counteract the increased price on the TGs.
Should even out (more or less)

Cheers
Martin

[Oxynot]

I think the buffs you've put on ogres boosts them somewhat. But if you want to do more and get them even closer to tier 1, I have another suggestion. In combination or instead of the other buffs.

Split the ogre positional in two:

0-4 Ogres, the same profile as they have now.
0-2 Ogre Savants, the same profile as above except +10k and GS access on a normal roll.

This would not add overall muscle on the team, but give the team a guarantee of certain skills like Block, Wrestle, Sure Hands, Frenzy, Tackle.. Which most other teams can take for granted. This would give them the opportunity to build a player against agility teams, or blodge players more precisely that give them headaches.

Ogre Savants are the players who had the grand idea to play blood bowl in the first place. They've surmised that it is even easier to bash in heads of little ones when nobody gets any weapons! In addition someone will pay you for it. What's for an ogre not to like about that. So they round up a few of their even-more-simple brethren and hit the pitch.

What do you think? I'm still of the mind, that if you only get up to six ogres, with bonehead, and only ST1 snotlings to compliment them, it is hard to go overboard with buffs

[Rhyoth]

1) Any team using Necromancy / Mind control / Slavery should NOT have a Reroll under 70.000 GP

IMO, this is a bit too arbitrary of a design rule to trump the balance.
When chaos rerolls were reduced by 10K, something similar was said, but it has worked out fine.

Welll, i still think the reroll price should actually represent something : the team's game and spirit. So, even if repricing Rerolls could work well, if you don't follow some guidelines, they will lose all their meaning and just be some odd game balancer.

Keep in mind that what was done with Chaos was an isolated event (and the BBRC was really short in options). Besides, there were some argument for it (especially if you consider they share the same faith, obviously in Khorne).
Sure, it still feel odd to see them with a cheaper Reroll than Nurgle, but a lot less than the opposite...

That's why, i think messing with the Reroll's price should be the last tweak to test, when everything else has fail : i think you still have other option to explore for those teams :
_ Vampires : Thick skull for free to Thrall
_ Necro : - 10 k to the Flesh Golem (it's still less powerful than a 60 k reroll...)
_ Khemri and Ogres : maybe your other tweaks could be enough


Yet, if you still want to adjust the RR, I think you should at least respect those two guidelines :
_ all Nercromancers should have the same Reroll's price (whatever the price)
_ there is absolutely no reason for Ogres to have a cheaper Reroll than Chaos Dwarves (while the opposite is debatable)



PS : on a diferent note, a friend of mine had an interresting idea about Ogres : including some Ogres specialists, starting with one skill, like : Blitzers (+Juggernaut), Blockers (+ Stand Firm or Multiple Block) or Runners (+ Break Tackle)... WDYT ?