Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[Krulfang]

Well, I normally play Orcs and I'm still not worried! However, Norse have a nice big laugh at claw though.

The only excessive trolling I like s a goblin team with Ripper on it!

[cbbakke]

I got the chance to play quite a bit of bloodbowl this weekend which was great.

The necro team with 2 claw is really nasty but tactically you can do something to protect yourself because of their are only two of them.

I played a team last night in MM that didn't care about the ball, the score, anything. They just tried to kill people with their 3 claw/MB/piling on people. I limited them to one blitz a turn except when I scored it made me set up so they got 3 more blocks that turn. Overall it was not blood bowl, it was just somebody rolling dice chanting "kill kill kill". The person he would blitz with would use piling on so I couldn't blitz him and he didnt care about tactics so he just protected his guy so I couldn't foul him without engaging my guys and getting more destroyed.

I understand Fend helps with piling on but not everbydoy on your team can have it and he just targetted somebody without it.

I have had a long standing issue with claw but really with seeing it on necro, and some of the other teams in the expansion it is more of an issue of how claw/mighty blow/ and piling on interact. Something needs to change to level off this combination in my opinion.

There are other ways to add carnage to the game to offset lost cas. I have no problem with blood, but something that turns a great tactical game into a dungeon stomp is a problem.

[mepmuff]

Overall it was not blood bowl, it was just somebody rolling dice chanting "kill kill kill".

The problem is not the skills, it's the coach.

[cbbakke]

True but we can change the rule far easier then the changing the person. I have played bloodbowl since 95 and those kind of players are around. I don't see a way to change that.

[mepmuff]

True but we can change the rule far easier then the changing the person. I have played bloodbowl since 95 and those kind of players are around. I don't see a way to change that.

If you want to change the skills, you're talking house-rules. Otherwise I think changing the person might actually be the easier option...

[GalakStarscraper]

If MM matches teams based on win % (ELO) instead of TV ... then you would not have an issue as all the Bash/Bash/Kill/Kill teams would get to only play each other.

The problems at Cyanide is NOT with the rules of Blood Bowl ... its is in the fact that they are using the most stupid match making system in the history of internet multi-player gaming.

You don't need to change the rules to fix your problem ... you need to fix the fact that teams that don't even try to win are not penalitized.

In a real league ... such a player would be kicked out of the league ... IE ... there would be a penalty for playing the way they do.

As mepmuff said ... its a problem with the person ... not the game ... and its a problem with the fact that MM isn't designed like a league to punish the person like a league would.

Tom/Galak

[cbbakke]

Everything you said is correct in regards to it being a person problem, being a poor match making system. Very disappointing how little thought they put into the MM system.

I would say that it is also a flaw in the design of the game that opens for the explotation. The kill kill kill person may really blow it out of the water, but fundementally game issue wise it is an issue also. A player with this skill set is going to slaughter other teams (literally) they may not win every game but they are going to beat coaches that they should not due to this player.

Bloodbowl has always been a flexible system that can work in many situations. I would say the current edition has made some huge improvements in several areas but this is one area that I think it has fell short. I don't know if you are familar with GURPS, but it is a generic roleplaying system that gives the rules foundation and can be used in either sci-fi, fantasy, cathulu, realistic setting etc etc. One of the brillance of blood bowl has been that it worked in big leagues, small leagues, small tournaments, single games, open ended leagues, closed leagues etc etc.

In my opinion this skill combination increases cas. (of especially none agile teams) combined with the addition of wrestle, fend that greatly reduce CAS. for finesse teams I think the combination of the two has unbalanced attrition at high levels.

[mepmuff]

A player with this skill set is going to slaughter other teams (literally) they may not win every game but they are going to beat coaches that they should not due to this player.

That's the upside of this skill combo. The downside is that the added TV-bloat and the fact that the player is on the floor for quite a bit is going to loose you games as well. Disregarding the a-hole coaches I have no problem whatsoever with this happening. It even balances out other issues in long leagues as it keeps the high AV teams in check.

Bloodbowl has always been a flexible system that can work in many situations. <snip> One of the brillance of blood bowl has been that it worked in big leagues, small leagues, small tournaments, single games, open ended leagues, closed leagues etc etc.

I disagree. 3rd edition didnt work in any way shape or form unless strongly house-ruled. old Claws/RSC/MB/PO combo's make the new Claws/MB/PO look like an extra soft hug...

In my opinion this skill combination increases cas. (of especially none agile teams) combined with the addition of wrestle, fend that greatly reduce CAS. for finesse teams I think the combination of the two has unbalanced attrition at high levels.

Got a league or ladder where we can see this? If I look at the FFB league at fumbbl I see a healthier mix of teams at the top then I ever saw with previous editions,

[GalakStarscraper]

In my opinion this skill combination increases cas. (of especially none agile teams) combined with the addition of wrestle, fend that greatly reduce CAS. for finesse teams I think the combination of the two has unbalanced attrition at high levels.

Got a league or ladder where we can see this? If I look at the FFB league at fumbbl I see a healthier mix of teams at the top then I ever saw with previous editions,

Agreed. My experience is that the teams are more balanced than ever before with each other ... not less.

[cbbakke]

http://www.sturmvonstahl.info/standings.php?ses=6

I played 3rd edition and it was a different game. Thsoe combo were nasty but everybody had access to the dirty player/MB combo also so head hunting was far easier to do.

Chaos also had to roll doubles for the combo so it was very rare.

I do agree overall the balance of the game has improved. I think that this one aspect being adjusted would create more balance for the basher teams and would make lead to chaos focusing less on claw/mb/piling on combo which means more balanced skills to allow them to do better against elves

[mepmuff]

http://www.sturmvonstahl.info/standings.php?ses=6

So, what are we looking at there?

I played 3rd edition and it was a different game. Thsoe combo were nasty but everybody had access to the dirty player/MB combo also so head hunting was far easier to do.

Chaos also had to roll doubles for the combo so it was very rare.

Apparently you played a very different 3rd than I did. But this direction is taking away from the discussion at hand, so I'll leave it at that.

I do agree overall the balance of the game has improved. I think that this one aspect being adjusted would create more balance for the basher teams and would make lead to chaos focusing less on claw/mb/piling on combo which means more balanced skills to allow them to do better against elves

If a coach chooses to develop his team one-sided, then he's shooting himself in the foot and I'll happily let him. Removing the effect claw has on the balance (which is to keep high AV teams in check) would create more imbalance, not less IMHO.

[dode74]

http://www.sturmvonstahl.info/standings.php?ses=6

So, what are we looking at there?

He's taking a single example of a single league where a good coach had a very good season and won lots. It's your basic cherrypicked result to prove his point, much like I could use the fact that Arsenal once went a whole season unbeaten to "prove" that they are the best football team in the world.

[spubbbba]

He has also managed to sidetrack more than one thread into a Claw thread, and recently started a thread with the title "Idea for Claw. Not changing Claw don't worry".

To be fair to cbbakke quite a few coaches were goading him in other threads he posted in and would bring the Claw debate into a conversation that had nothing to do with it just to make fun of him. I'd certainly consider some of that mild trolling, but euqally that thread game me mor laughs than the rest of the rather tedious Cyanide forum. Only the "AI cheats with rolls thread comes close to matching it".

Personally I would like to see DP going back to +2 and the eye coming back. I don't like that being prone is almost a safe place to stay and think using piling on should be more of a risk. I preferred fouling to be a deadlier risk so you could target key players like wardancers, mummies or Block/Claw/Piling On/MB monsters.
Removing the +1 for fouling and fixing GTR were enough for me really.

[cbbakke]

http://www.sturmvonstahl.info/standings.php?ses=6

So, what are we looking at there?

He's taking a single example of a single league where a good coach had a very good season and won lots. It's your basic cherrypicked result to prove his point, much like I could use the fact that Arsenal once went a whole season unbeaten to "prove" that they are the best football team in the world.

Somebody asked me to post the league so I did. Let me say that again. I was asked to post the league and I DID. They will look at the info and come up with their own conclusion. This is an example of your basic mild trolling post. I was asked to do soemthing so I did and it is jumped all over.

As for the comments of DP and I got my eye on you. I agree with you on both accounts. I think that was the best system to handle fouling to date. It was not able to use as a clear the field method unless both teams wanted to do it and it was a little more deadly.

I am not saying remove claw, I would say adjusting it. Basically what I would change is how claw, piling on and MB interact.

either
Piing on only works on armor roll or it stuns the player using it or the player using it has to roll an armor roll also. (now that will bring the carnage to bloodbowl)

Claw and MB cannot be used on the same roll if Claw is to stay 7+

or Claw is changed to 8+ to make all high armor people effectively average armor and then mighty blow would m ake them low armored.

One of the arguements has been that it will lower attrition too much, but if that is the case there are other ways to adjust that while fixing this loop hole in my opinion.

[mepmuff]

Somebody asked me to post the league so I did. Let me say that again. I was asked to post the league and I DID. They will look at the info and come up with their own conclusion. This is an example of your basic mild trolling post. I was asked to do soemthing so I did and it is jumped all over.

Yes, you posted a link to a league. I don't see anything there that's indicative of the impact of claw/MB/PO on those leagues. So my question: what are we looking at here? still stands.