The Fierce Urgency of Now?

[klauser]

Well, for a single ST increase, you could have 2.5 instances of Guard, which might provide for a more consistent perfomance than a single "strong" piece. I think that is what "stability" should express.

[MKL]

I don't know that ST increases decrease a team's "stability" in any way. Guard doesn't, and +ST is at least as good as Guard almost all the time.

The problem is the balance of Height and Stability.
+ST in lieu of Block is great, but decrease Stability.

I have got 3 +St and 1 +MV early on my Necros. At the time the team got only 4 Block, 1 Dodge, no Sure Hands: when the dices were kind it was great, but when they turned sour it crashed.
I have seen the same happen to other teams: they eventually got the basic skills they needed, but for a while they were extremely unreliable.
Stat increase on a developed (reliable) team do not have this problem.

[DoubleSkulls]

Really its about balancing effectiveness now against long term potential. So height works for me, but I'm not sure "stability" does. I get the idea, I just think the phrasing could be better.

[MKL]

I get the idea, I just think the phrasing could be better.

I'm sure it could
Not native speaker: it's fairly clear in my native language, but I'm unable to convey it in english
If you got better phrasing, you are welcome

-Edit-
An example: starting Slann team got a lot of of Height (theoretical capability) but low Stability (very unreliable, need a lot of skills and rr).

[mattgslater]

Well, for a single ST increase, you could have 2.5 instances of Guard

Not really. In pure TV terms, it's 2.5 or 1.67 to 1. But you still have to earn the improvements.

[DoubleSkulls]

Maybe just ability and potential? Ability is the effectiveness of the team now, potential the peak it can expect to achieve.

So taking +ST, for example, may give you a much higher increase in potential than ability, and "normal" skills just get the ability closer to the potential.

However this is missing a fundamental point which is the velocity to potential. So although almost every possible skill or stat improves the ability of the team, some reduce the velocity to achieving potential compared to a normal skill - at the same time as raising the potential. For example a BOB with Block will get to his 2nd skill at a given speed. The same BOB with +ST will normally skill up slower (barring coach intervention) and hence the rate of improvement (or velocity) is lower than it would be with a normal skill.

[voyagers_uk]

can I suggest the word "ceiling" after all, when they look at NFL rookies they compare their ceiling all the time.

[Smurf]

I've noticed stat increases can also be a curse. I have seen a Vamp team with 6 stat increase on the vamps. A mixture of 2 ST, 2 AG and 2 Move. Did it hamper them, yet is did. Oh wow, nice state line... still no decent skills.

Some positions just love a stat increase.

Then the real head scatcher is double 5 and double 6. For teams that are big enough, or teams with no S access, 10 and 12 become scatchers. My thoughts are if they don't have S access get guard, elf blitzer thing go for MB, other blitzers may want dodge. It's just a tough call.

AV can be broken by Claws
ST can be overcome by Dauntless

So it is a poser to chose from. And if you have a certain way you enjoy to play... follow it.

[MKL]

Maybe just ability and potential? Ability is the effectiveness of the team now, potential the peak it can expect to achieve.

So taking +ST, for example, may give you a much higher increase in potential than ability, and "normal" skills just get the ability closer to the potential.

However this is missing a fundamental point which is the velocity to potential. So although almost every possible skill or stat improves the ability of the team, some reduce the velocity to achieving potential compared to a normal skill - at the same time as raising the potential. For example a BOB with Block will get to his 2nd skill at a given speed. The same BOB with +ST will normally skill up slower (barring coach intervention) and hence the rate of improvement (or velocity) is lower than it would be with a normal skill.

I think we are speaking about two type of balance, related but different.
-Balancing short term efficiency vs long term potential (I agree with everything you wrote, especially about “speed to potential”)
-Balancing the capability to be reliable vs the capability to be unpredictable/dangerous (again, I cannot find the right word ).

A team need both qualities: a friend of mine developed an HE team full of Block, Dodge, Accurate... and not much else. The team performed reliably, but unless the opponent fumbled badly, it was unable to achieve much. It was too tame.

Another friend's starting Norse rolled *a lot* of +St, +Mv and MB on his team, but no Dodge/Block/Sure Hands etc. In few games bought even the Troll and was full roster. Fearsome to behold, but with only 2 trr, no Sure Hands, no more inducements, the team capsized under an onslaught of failed pick-up and self-defeating Ulfwerener/Troll.

[mattgslater]

So what you're talking about can be thought of as a pair of graphs:

Immediate v Potential
and
Power v Reliability

You could say that each improvement offers a value of 1-5 on each axis. That something with only long-term value, useless now, is a 1 in Immediate value, while something with great immediate applicability is a 5. By contrast, a skill that's good now, but will become less and less useful, might have a 1 potential, while a skill that just gets better as your team or your opposition improves has a 5. Ditto power and reliability.

Really, "Immediate" and "Potential" are two different cocktails of power and reliability. Reliability is a function of how many times you'll successfully use the improvement over a match; [EDIT: Power] is the impact of successful uses on the match. Both include threat value. For instance, having Block gets use on 7/36 2d blocks vs. rookies, plus on 1/12 2d blocks vs. skilled, plus 1/6 1d blocks, plus 7/36 or 1/6 blocks against from attackers with Block, plus any positional advantage provided by matchup games (say, 1/6 of a knockdown/TO if your opponent decides to blitz him with Wrestle even though he needs a GFI to do it).

+ST (from 3 to 4): good potential, fair immediate, great power, fair or poor reliability (depending on how much ST you've got)
+AG (from 3 to 4): great potential, good immediate, good power, poor reliability
+AG (from 4 to 5): good potential, fair immediate, fair power, poor reliability
VLL on a rookie GR: Good potential, bad immediate, good power, bad reliability
+MA on a BC: Good potential, fair immediate, fair power, great reliability
+AV on a rookie Ghoul: Great potential, bad immediate, good power, poor reliability

[MKL]

(...) Really, "Immediate" and "Potential" are two different cocktails of power and reliability. Reliability is a function of how many times you'll successfully use the improvement over a match; potential [power?] is the impact of successful uses on the match. Both include threat value (...)

Yeah, Immediate/Potential is a measure of Reliability/Power over time.

I got the idea that Reliability makes sense when put in the team's context.
Mighty Blow, for example: it's unreliable when used to skill up a block-less dude. On a green team lacking fundamental skills (like a Flesh Golem on a rookie Necro team) it's seriously unreliable. On a starting Orc team (typically 4 Block, Sure Hands, 3 rr) not so much. On a developed team Orc team it adds threat value without hindering the reliability.

(On the other hand, Leap is a skill that always put some strain on the team's reliability).

[DoubleSkulls]

+ST (from 3 to 4): good potential, fair immediate, great power, fair or poor reliability (depending on how much ST you've got)
+AG (from 3 to 4): great potential, good immediate, good power, poor reliability

You see with both of these I'd say they've good or average reliability impacts. Failing dodges from 1/3 to 1/6 is a big improvement in reliability, and being able to make a 2 dice block instead of a 1 dice block is also a reliability improvement.

[DoubleSkulls]

So what you're talking about can be thought of as a pair of graphs:

Immediate v Potential
and
Power v Reliability

I don't think this accounts for rate of improvement though. You may be able to infer it from improved immediate power/reliability but the correlation isn't very strong. For example Guard doesn't help you individuals SPPs, but Mighty Blow does - but I think they'd score similarly.

Also you may want to consider the impact of team based values as well - otherwise you aren't articulating the value of Kick, Leader etc.

[mattgslater]

Maybe the proper way to do this includes a holistic look at the team. Are you picking a core skill for your team, a basic toolbox skill, or a skill to help your team branch out?

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I always take the best skill available for now. This means I pass up some doubles rolls, which is fine as often they are TV bloat and players die.