Viability of a Wight Thrower

[Lunchab1es]

Assuming you get an AG boost or a doubles roll, how viable is a Wight thrower and thus an Undead/Necro passing game? At his second skill up you can pick strong arm, so...

Is AG4 + Strong Arm, or AG3 + Pass/Accurate + Strong arm, a potent enough combination to pose a passing game threat? You have 4 Ghouls/2 Ghouls + 2 Weres as receivers with AG access, but again only at AG 3 and no starting Catch/Diving Catch (not to mention the opportunity cost of giving them receiving skills instead of survival skills).

So again, does a Wight have a chance at becoming a decent QB with the right rolls? Or is this simply a TV-bloating gimmick?

[inkpwn]

I think its just going to be a waste of TV and a decent player. My undead team has little to no passing game and that's the way I likes it!
The wight is a valued precision blitzer and should be wasted that way. He's 90k starting, that's way to much to invest on a passing game, he should be guarding up and kicking butt. Butt I say!

[Da_Great_MC]

I have an AG4 Wight on my Necromantic team. He picks up the ball and holds on to it untill it's safe to hand off or score. Next skills were Sure Hands and Stand Firm. At 51 SPP's I gave him Strong Arm, for those rare ocasions where you want to score in two or three turns.

I like the player, I don't think it's a waste of team value. Although he's my main ball carrier first, only a thrower in specific situations.

[mage75]

I've played wights both ways - with sure hands, strong arm and pass, but I have found I am winning more game with blodge (if lucky enough for a double) mighty blow, tackle and of course guard. Those skills seem to get used every turn, whereas sure hands was maybe 3 times a game and the passing skills only once or twice. Since the wight is one of the undeads faster players, and has regen, I have found it better to have the wight putting players on their back rather than staying out of the fight holding the ball. So far it feel to me like I am getting much better value out of the skills by going down the hitting route rather than the ball handling route.

[mattgslater]

Meh. Works, isn't really optimal.

[Smeborg]

I ran my most successful ever team in 3rd Ed. with 2 Wight Throwers (Undead). This was probably easier before 5th/6th Eds. since there were fewer skills to choose from.

Both Wights started with S-Hands, one got +1AG, the other got a double and I gave him Accurate. So both could pass at 2+.

The great strength of the team was that on offense, they could threaten to run, hand-off and/or pass, all threats having roughly equal force. This was a nightmare for the defender. They could also score reliably in 2 or 3 turns when they had to. On defense, the ability to move the ball a long distance when spilled was quite a big bonus for a bashy team.

Wights retain SPPs 3 times better than Ghouls (or are 3 times more difficult to kill, if you like). Making the Wights into versatile Runner/Throwers gave them plenty of SPPs, which they retained for the team. It also freed the Ghouls to take a generic build, so that I did not need to worry when one of them died. In 6th Ed., for the Ghouls I would probably take Wrestle, Tackle, S-Step, Fend, J-Up , or something like that (ball-hunting Blitzers who do not need to care unduly about their own safety).

I have not tried this system with Necros, but am planning to do so next season. I suspect it would work well, as I have observed that the Necros suffer more than Undead when Ghouls die, because having only 2, they tend to be both more specialised and targetted more. Making the Wights the primary ball-carriers would seem to largely obviate this problem. Making the Ghouls into ball-hunting Blitzers would also seem to complement the role of the Wolves (blitzing to cause damage or to remove opponents from the pitch).

There are lots of skills for Wight Runner/Throwers: S-Hands, KoR, Fend, Pro, S-Arm, J-Naut, Grab. But I would probably not neglect other skills such as Guard and Tackle (and even M-Blow). So you have perhaps 9 or 10 skills to fit into 5 skill slots, and in an appropriate order. Then there are doubles to consider (Accurate, Pass, Dodge, S-Step etc.). Early doubles or stat increases might change the build quite a lot. One possiblity is to build a specialist Runner and a specialist Thrower (this becomes potentially quite complicated, but would mean you could deploy nearly all of the available skills).

Hope that helps, and good luck whatever you choose to do.

[MKL]

Hi Lunchab1es!

In the last league I tried a S-Arm+Pass Wight for my necros and got a mixed feeling.

This thrower-Wight was fairly successful per se, but somewhat difficult to fit in the team.
Necros usually protect 4 players, the precious WWs and the frail Ghouls. With such “thrower” I needed to screen 5 players with the other 6 (difficult), or had to use a Ghoul in blocker duty (big, soft target... ).
Maybe in a team with only a Ghoul and an extra Zombie?

[spubbbba]

Wights are the only players on an Undead team that have access to both general and strength skills and they start with block too (Golems have the same access on Necros but are lumbered with MA4, AG2 and no starting block).

If anything Wights have too many good skills to choose from (Guard, MB, Tackle, PO, SF, Frenzy, Strip ball) so taking passing skills is s huge waste of potential and isn’t really utilising starting with block and AV8. Guard in particular is a much needed skill above 1500 as zombies need doubles and tend to skill up very slowly so without it you will get out muscled by other bashers or even hybrids.

I think Strong arm is a bit of a waste on a thrower so would never take it on a wight. +AG or MA would both be useful and with either or them and team re-rolls he would be a moderately effective passer,

The base Ghoul is a better passer with +MA and Dodge giving them the more mobility and they can always take sure hands and maybe accurate on a double.

One of Undead’s greatest strengths is their versatility and they do have the ability to pull off a passing play if needed but I wouldn’t pick skills that are only useful for passing as they are far too situational.

[Digger Goreman]

+1 to MKL and Spubbbba!

[PercyTheTroll]

I'd agree that the ghoul is the better choice for a thrower type on the Necro team. I use my Wights to work with the wolves in a blitz support/tackle role and I'd be reluctant to lose that (I find the Golems just don't keep up anything like well enough).

Your ghouls are likely to take sure hands as ball carriers whatever your style of play - they're the obvious backfield players IMO as you want the wolves wreaking havoc somewhere rather than picking up the ball. Once the ball is in hand you can run it forward and cage up around the ghoul, protecting the low armour. At this point you have 3-5 potential receivers - the other ghoul (especially if you give him catch), the wolves (for a long run in) or the wights. I've found a quick/short passing game built around the ghouls works fairly well although I'm still waiting for that elusive double

[MeatLoafX]

I'll add my voice to the "no wight thrower" camp. It's not really a question of whether a wight can be a decent thrower - it's more a matter of what the rest of the team loses when you go that route. Not worth it, imho.

[Smeborg]

I think the cases for and against are being overstated somewhat. It is the jump from Runner to Thrower that is the big leap, and I agree that developing a Wight as a Thrower means that you have to forgo something important (Guard mainly).

But I don't see having a Runner Wight or two as particularly controversial. It only takes one skill on a Wight to create a Runner (Sure Hands). The Wight can then take skills like Guard, Tackle, M-Blow etc.

The gains from having Wight Runners are (a) better SPP retention for the team, and (b) freeing up the Ghouls to take Wrestle/Tackle (so that you have ball-hunters as well as player-hunters on these versatile teams). If you get a stat increase or double, a Runner Wight becomes more than handy - and then you can start to consider other development paths (this is what caused me to go down the Thrower route with Undead).

All the best.

[Digger Goreman]

Overstated...? Begs for an explanation.... Out of pure curiosity....
*************
This may all be a restatement, but:

Zombies: G skills, spp almost Cas alone, no reroll skills
Golems: SG skills, spp almost Cas alone, no reroll skills
Ghouls: AG skills, spp primarily from TD, dodge negated by tackle, can become catcher
Wights: SG skills, spp from Cas/TD, no reroll skills
Wolves: AG skills, spp from Cas/TD, no reroll skills, vulnerable to incautious/trick frenzy

It's hard to get off the running game: you have no natural passers; the only access to any passing skill is Strong Arm on the Wights, and they are your only readily available access to Guard, as well as being the natural assists for the Werewolves (Ghouls can, but lack Block/Wrestle at the beginning and are least armored).... Werewolves have access to Catch, but are valuable blitzers and need Blodge asap....

Ghouls, your most delicate pieces, are the only ball handling players that might be forced into the mold with the least loss.... They are fast, would prefer non-contact and have dodge to that end.... If willing to break the running mode, and having two ghouls on the team, one would be good as a Sure Hands, Block, KOR (Pass on first doubles available) and the other as a Catch, Block/Fend.... Kept alive long enough (rotssa ruck wit dat) the passing and catching ghoul could be augmented with catch wolves on their third skill choices....

My preference, however, is to make my ghouls Block, Fend, Sidestep for the "runner" and Block, whatever for the other, as I like to blitz with them IF necessary....

For all the good that comes from playing Necros/Undead, you still are saddled with only 6 ball handling positionals... and two to four of them are armored 7 and none have Sure Hands, Pass or Catch.... Turnover is a drag, also....

So, yes, you can force-fit a Wight as Quarterback... but I go with those who have much more violent/greater uses for them....

[MKL]

Hi Smeborg

I wrote a Wight thrower (not runner) is “difficult to fit” in the Necro team for the reason stated: the consequent need to put a Ghoul in screening duty.
If you are willing to use the Ghoul to screen the Wight, I think it's fine. The advantage in spp retention you mentioned is indubitable.

Still, I suspect that it's easier to do with Undead than Necros: in UD teams you got 4 Ghouls, so they are relatively expendable/interchangeable.
Necro teams are less flexible since this burden falls on only 2 Ghouls: when attrition ensues, you have to screen the carrier with the Wolves (not an endearing choice).
Just an hunch, really, but that's my gut feeling.

[Smurf]

He could be a Wight Passblocker