Tactics of the tundra, norse in leagues.

[Carnis]

Inkpwn, it obviously depends on your opposition.

If you're in an elf heavy league then just build a carrier/handoff-machine (runner - sure hands dodge) + 4x st-players with mbpo & guard/mb type builds (zerk+ulfs) and ignore the snowtroll.

If you're in a basher heavy league then take a starting snow troll & focus more on the runners (claw+mb & blodge, daunts = annoying vs non-tackle, high av chaos/orc-types). Even then you cant skip the only S access players but the focus is different.

The main problem is whatever you do, at the time your opponents start to have their 3rd mbpo you are going to get hurt, no matter how much fend you bring to bear. Amazons are better in this respect. This luckily does not happen in TT environments half as much as it does in online ones.

*

I had thought about revising that playbook eventually, since its now perpetually available - I just dont see myself finding the time/effort/interest for it at the moment/in the near future though.

[Smeborg]

Hi Carnis - I hope you manage to find time and motivation to continue updating your playbook, which I like.

I agree with your comments, but I wonder what is the best way to develop the Norse in an all-round way (to face all types of opponents). I wonder if there is a "third way" to develop Norse based on something like the following themes:

- Early Guard on the ST access players (e.g. 2nd skill on the Ulfs, 1st on the 'Zerks);
- Improved surfing (e.g. early Jugs on 2 or 3 players);
- Develop either a pure Thrower and/or a very fast Runner (e.g. including KoR, S-Feet, Sprint) for better ball movement;
- Concentrate on developing most Linos purely for LoS duty (possibly ignoring Guard on doubles, heretical as it may seem).

All the best.

[Carnis]

1 Early Guard on the ST access players (e.g. 2nd skill on the Ulfs, 1st on the 'Zerks);
2 Improved surfing (e.g. early Jugs on 2 or 3 players);
3 Develop either a pure Thrower and/or a very fast Runner (e.g. including KoR, S-Feet, Sprint) for better ball movement;
4 Concentrate on developing most Linos purely for LoS duty (possibly ignoring Guard on doubles, heretical as it may seem).

Well it doesnt fit my philosophy at all, but it can work in some environments Im sure.

1) Early guard is better than early mb, early mbpo is better than early block guard. Hence I would not go 100% on either direction as you advocate.
2) Jugs is really underwhelming, what's worse its countered by sidestep. Again I'd steer clear, norse is an expensive team.
3) The thrower is heresy imo. At 70k he needs sure hands to be able to pickup, then accurate possibly strong arm to throw. That's one double, 31 spp and 140k TV. For speeding the team he is not worth the bloat. That said, one rookie thrower is ok for oneturn attempts in a high end team where the 20k is not that crucial. Good runners can do what you propose by handing off up to 13-14 square advancements in one turn (ma7+ ma7 or ma7 + ma6). Good enough.
4) So what skill is better than guard for LOS duty? Heresy again . Also, what will you pick after fend. I had some really lovely fend / guard / tackle or guard / fend / S4 linemen in my online norse team..

You can create an allround norse, it will be worse again than specialist norse against the circumstances described. It will be worse than an ag4 team at passing ball and worse than ST4 teams at blocking.

[narg]

1) Early guard is better than early mb, early mbpo is better than early block guard. Hence I would not go 100% on either direction as you advocate.
...
3) The thrower is heresy imo. At 70k he needs sure hands to be able to pickup, then accurate possibly strong arm to throw. That's one double, 31 spp and 140k TV. For speeding the team he is not worth the bloat. That said, one rookie thrower is ok for oneturn attempts in a high end team where the 20k is not that crucial. Good runners can do what you propose by handing off up to 13-14 square advancements in one turn (ma7+ ma7 or ma7 + ma6). Good enough.

I know you've got a crazy win/loss ratio with your tactics but for the life of me I just don't get how it works. If you take no / few guard and your ulfwereners and the snow troll don't have block you should end up throwing lots of 2d, 1d or even 2d against blocks without block (when the frenzy backfires and you have no guard assists). It seems to pay off big time for you but I just can't make it work. Hell, in my last game the snow troll threw only one block and obviously he rolled a double both down before getting knocked out for the game - I can only imagine what would happen if my ulfwereners had pomb instead of block guard (well probably more casualties but also a lot more turnovers).

Re the thrower, I regularly have games where I manage to get the ball off the opponent on turn 7 or 8 and I need to make a pass to the other side of the pitch - hard to do without a thrower. Seems to me he's pulling his weight.

Makes me want to start a second Norse team using your tactics to see how it fares.

[Carnis]

I know you've got a crazy win/loss ratio with your tactics but for the life of me I just don't get how it works.

Makes me want to start a second Norse team using your tactics to see how it fares.

Depends on the opposition.

At TV 1000 you are on an advantage against anybody (ubiquitous block, cheap line). At around TV 1500 the game starts go go sour.

At TV > 1800 my norse got ripped just like the rest of them in blackbox fumbbl, I haven't really got back on the norse after that, even though I cut the team to TV 1350's. I eventually got frustrated enough with it (the team in that format, losing to a random-play dwarf just because he had mass guard/MB and I got equal TV due to expensive positions + fend liners) that I only played nurgle, which is really the best long term hitting team for the format along with CDs (perpetual, clawpomb massacre, no prepicking opponents).

My "tactics" worked mainly because mb/piling on is overpowered, everybody in fumbbl-side is starting to see the light in that. The other bit is I'm pretty aggressive surfer. But my guess is something in your format isn't very friendly towards norse (you get picked by opponents wishing to pick norse, or your league ONLY has high AV teams in there, or there's some other hindrance). The norse are best against av7-8 type teams for sure, lacking reliable claw. Also there's nothing wrong with Block/Guard/MB ulfs, it's probably the best way to go in the long term.. So long as somebody has mbpo.

[Smeborg]

2) Jugs is really underwhelming, what's worse its countered by sidestep. Again I'd steer clear, norse is an expensive team.

You may be right, but I've always feared surfing from Norse teams a lot more than MB/POn.

3) The thrower is heresy imo.

I am inclined to agree when I coach Norse, however, as an opponent I seem to have struggled more against Norse teams with Throwers than those without.

4) So what skill is better than guard for LOS duty?

Possibly none, but possibly Fend, Sidestep, Thick Skull, maybe Dodge (if you do not want to contest the LoS, but just to stay on the pitch).

You can create an allround norse, it will be worse again than specialist norse against the circumstances described. It will be worse than an ag4 team at passing ball and worse than ST4 teams at blocking.

But perhaps, like Humies, it would usually be better at something. The Norse armour disadvantage is so great, that I have never found them good against teams with higher AV and higher ST (e.g. Orcs, Nurgle, Chaos). The Norse seem to get out-bashed in such match-ups, their main chances being 1 Claw player, surfing and ownership of the sidelines,and potentially better ball movement. I am not yet totally convinced that they are a traditional bash team (i.e. winning by numbers), although I do not doubt your ability to play them very well as such. My tentative suggestion is that the more Norse try to play traditional bash, the worse they get (especially at higher TV), therefore there might be another way. I do not exclude the possiblity that they simply suck in certain environments.

All the best.

[Carnis]

But perhaps, like Humies, it would usually be better at something. The Norse armour disadvantage is so great, that I have never found them good against teams with higher AV and higher ST (e.g. Orcs, Nurgle, Chaos). The Norse seem to get out-bashed in such match-ups, their main chances being 1 Claw player, surfing and ownership of the sidelines,and potentially better ball movement. I am not yet totally convinced that they are a traditional bash team (i.e. winning by numbers), although I do not doubt your ability to play them very well as such. My tentative suggestion is that the more Norse try to play traditional bash, the worse they get (especially at higher TV), therefore there might be another way. I do not exclude the possiblity that they simply suck in certain environments.

All the best.

Yep, you have a point, BUT. Why not just play humans if you want that kind of play? Natural catch, natural sure hands, higher MA, higher AV..

Norse can play humans but they are awfully expensive playing it (90k catchers without catch, 70k throwers without sure hands). It's viable, probably the best way to go in an all av9 environment.. Still guard > dodge on the linemen imo because of all the dorfs..

[mattgslater]

Norse have a very hard time vs bash at equal TV. In sked leagues, this doesn't hurt as bad: their woes don't set in until TV management gives them a Wizard in every game, and frequently Boomer too. This isn't enough, but it helps quite a bit. Boomer in particular is worth a LOT more than his 60k: he's like an end-of-turn Wizard and a Journeyman all in one. AV9/TS/SW is a lot like AV7. Well, it's much better if he's pushed on a line-block and ends up in a bunch of zones.

There is a bit of Human effect there. Like Dark Elves and Amazons and Necromantic; you gotta play a bit to your opposition. You have your own tendencies, but they don't do the same thing against Pro Elves or whatnot as they do against Nurgle and the like. Build to smash face, but that means corralling and slaughtering some teams, while launching surgical strikes on others.

[Smeborg]

Yep, you have a point, BUT. Why not just play humans if you want that kind of play? Natural catch, natural sure hands, higher MA, higher AV..

Norse can play humans but they are awfully expensive playing it (90k catchers without catch, 70k throwers without sure hands). It's viable, probably the best way to go in an all av9 environment.. Still guard > dodge on the linemen imo because of all the dorfs..

I agree with what you say. The appeal of the Norse team is very much to play as some kind of bash. But it seemed to me that the balance between ball movement and bash was better for the team in 4th Ed. They could play either style (or both) according to the situation. But maybe that's just nostalgia.