GW - what to do????

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Milo
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Post by Milo »

Mirascael wrote: Some 7 years ago I left 2nd BB and started playing MTG CCG (Magic). :oops:

Now that I'm back in the business (LRB is an excellent improvement indeed), I wonder why the quality of the minis has deteriorated that much since 2nd (the new ogres appear, of course, improved)? :pissed:

I mean, the current halflings would fit into the Palace of Eternal Suffering, they really do hurt my eyes. :roll:

What has happened over the last 7 years? Please enlighten me! :smoking:
Two words: Gary Morley.

A different GW sculptor, Jes Goodwin, was responsible for a lot of the 2nd Edition Line, such as the Elves and Skaven. I dearly wish he'd come back to the BB fold, but he's busy making Warhammer 40k minis, GW's real cash cow.

The teams released since 2000 have been done by a variety of contract sculptors for Fanatic, including Phil (of Phil's Phigs.)

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Post by Ghost of Pariah »

Fine Milo, Fanatic is super duper because JJ invented the game. :roll:

He messing it up now, though and saying so is not meant in disrespect to his work on the game! You act like because I say something suck that I hate you all. Here you are riding to the defense of Fanatic's crap peddling.

The BB Mags are overpriced and contain nothing but broken rules and disguised ads for minis...which are overpriced and sub par themselves. Many of us recognize that, why can't the BBRC? You just said that none of the recent teams are something you would put in your league but out of the other side of your mouth you endorse spending money on said teams!

WHY? If you aren't bound to say those things then why do you? Why are you encouraging me to buy material that you wouldn't use?

And you expect me to come to you with changes? You don't even know if you like the new teams or not!

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Post by Cervidal »

Y'know... the BBRC isn't completely responsible for what goes into the Blood Bowl Magazines. They don't have some kind of final say as to what gets printed or not. You really need to stop making that assumption.

That said... with the experimental teams coming out, and the minis being produced, you're also making the assumption that you absolutely HAVE to use every new squad that goes in print. Fanatic makes Khemri, Ogre, and Rotters. Fine. Use those minis on your original Undead team, for your Big Guys, and to model up your Chaos team.

The Magazine spits out ideas to a worldwide audience. Contrary to the belief held by the folks on this board, most of the miniaure-purchasing world does not pay attention to the thoughts kicked around here. BB Magazine, however, is looked at by gamers in a wide variety of locations. Folks are intellegent enough to understand what the magazine means when it says a given rule is 'experimental'. They are smart enough to figure out that the rules in the magazine are subject to change because of their unofficial status.

Would you really rather have no magazine at all? I think that I would then be hearing the complaints again about how GW refuses to support their smaller games. I'm amazed that they devote ANY time to Blood Bowl given its small potato status to their bottom line.

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Post by Ghost of Pariah »

Never made that assumption.

I said they are pushing them even though they know they are crap.
Milo said that he wouldn't let any of those teams in his league but he thinks we should all buy the magazine.
Milo wrote: For the record, I do agree that the none of the recently printed teams in the BBMag are something I would like to include in my own league. I'm doing what I can to fix them, and I believe several of the other BBRC members are involved in their own ways. (JKL has been pretty busy with the NAF lately, or I'm sure he'd be participating more himself.)
I believe he's saying that he feels the teams are broken...I doubt he will say it that obvertly but that is what this mean, I'm sure.
Milo wrote: Do I want people to buy Fanatic's products? Sure, because I want Fanatic to stay in business and continue producing new products.
Why would you want to encourage them to make more of the same broken rules? I just don't understand this? And why on Earth would you encourage others to buy products that you claim are sub-standard?

I don't understand. Am I supposed to blindly support JJ because a decade ago he made decent rules once? Sorry, I'm not like that. I expect quality for my money. 3 magazines of shit don't make 1 good magazine and saying that they suck is what we are supposed to do...at least that what the BBRC says. Although, unless you like the rules, they won't like you and will call you immature names, insult your intelligence and coaching abilty, and generally try to paint you as a lunatic.

What Milo is supposed to do is tell JJ and Andy that their rules suck and that we are not pleased. Instead we get told we are unnappreciative, get called names, and told that we should buy the crap and smile while we do it.

No thanks. :puke:

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Post by BullBear »

BB does have a universal rule set -- the LRB. Note that Khemri, Rotters, Ogres, etc. are not a part of it yet. I'm curious to see if you think the Norse, Amazons and Lizardmen -- teams which have become official -- are unbalanced. If you don't, then I hope you'll understand that the BBRC will do our best to ensure that the new teams will get the same treatment.
I suppose it could be said the Amazons are slightly overpowered (particularly compared to the Norse), but I don't want to debate that. The Lizzy's however, took forever to get something as simple as MB tacked on the Krox. That's an oversight we shouldn't have had to wait over a year for. IMO, if the BBRC misses a common sense rule, make the change immediately, we don't need to wait for Oct (particularly since it doesn't seem as if they're spending all that time playtesting their own new teams...) that's why we have the LRB. Also, one could be confused why the skinks are held to the rule of 'stunties' regarding skills sets, throwing range, etc., yet don't have Right Stuff. There seems to be a double standard. These things should've been worked out before charged to the public. Yes, we do have to buy the Mags, or there wouldn't be much for us to do to support Fanantic.

As far as the Necro team, as was recently brought up, I stand by my claim that it's 'silly'. First, no one ever claimed the undead to be broke, so why fix it? If it's to fall in line with WFB, the new teams sure don't reflect that, particularly the vamps. Second, the team makes absolutely no sense w/in GW's own universe. Weres are known to hang with Norse, not the undead. Also, I'm to believe that a necro can animate and regenerate a corpse, but not a 'patched up' one - the flesh golems? Ridiculous. To top it off, only two types on the team get regen, and no apoth for the rest, yet the overpowered vamps get regen and an apoth? WTF?? Where's the logic? So even though I've made no claim to them being broken, their rules and logic are silly and forced.

Finally, for tonight, BBMAG is not that big. To make errors like saying there can be 6 rotters on the roster, but refering to only 4 in the beast's write up is unexcusable. These types of mistakes make the game seem bush league and confusing to newbies. The BBMags, have unfortunately, become irrelevant as we're forced to go on-line to sort out it's rules. Please, understand that I'm only upset 'cause I enjoy BB greatly, and have higher expectations for the game than what we're given currently.

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Post by Sixpack595 »

I'll just say I agree with most of what Pariah is saying.

I'd also like to say the new undead teams are figging retarded. Stick with the regular undead, you want Khemri? Don't use zombies, and use skellies converted to replace Ghouls. Call them Run-ras if you must.

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Post by Mestari »

Pariah wrote:disguised ads for minis...which are overpriced and sub par themselves.
The Ogres rock! Overpriced, yes. Great minis, yes! I hope they keep up the football -look incorporated back to the minis in the Ogres when releasing the upcoming remakes of all the teams.

WHY? If you aren't bound to say those things then why do you?
Here I ride again to defend the BBRC defending the Fanatic:

Because it makes sense. If I was in the BBRC, and I disliked the rules, which option would I choose:

1) To make Pariah and the like happy by openly assaulting Fanatic and fellow BBRC members, thus making them less happy to work with me and less prone to listen to my opinions.

OR

2) To keep in good terms with JJ and the rest of the staff, and to attempt to work face-to-face with them to get the rules changed. If I wanted to point out to JJ that the rules are disliked, I could always point to these discussions. JJ looks them, notices that I'm trying to keep up his side, and is a lot more willing to listen to my opinions than he would if I had joined the mob that's taunting him and his rules.


Comparison to military:
Non-Fanatic members of the BBRC are the non-commissioned officers of the BB world while JJ and Andy H. are officers. The rest of us are ordinary soldiers, troopers who are naturally prone to hate and dislike the officers and non-commissioned officers because of their decisions and their position as our superiors.
Now, in the military there are always some non-commissioned officers who try to make themselves more popular amongst the troopers by joining them in their stupid bitching. Which is totally disgraceful, as the officers are there for a reason and to fulfill a mission, which requires them to make decisions whether or not the troopers like it. Not all of the decisions are good, but in that case the job of the non-commissioned officers is to discuss this with their superiors and relay feelings of the troopers to them, not to whine and bitch about the decisions amongst the troopers. And if the officers decide that the decision holds, then the non-commissioned officers are to support this resolution.

I'm very happy that none of the BBRC has stooped as low as to taunt other members or JJ and as to attempt to gather a following by being the "trooper-friendly BBRC member".

Now, I do realise that this is not a military environment. But from the point of view of the BBRC, to act smoothly, efficiently and for the greater good of the game, the comparison is quite valid. I see no good reason for them to join the bitching around here. It would only undermine their own position.

People should perhaps try to see things from their perspective. What would you do as a BBRC member to maximise your ability to affect decisions? Definitely not taunt the other BBRC members around here (and yes, Pariah, I know you would, but that's why you wouldn't make a good officer or a non-commissioned officer).

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Post by Ghost of Pariah »

I don't think the BBRC should "openly assault" Fanatic or JJ.

What I do think they should do is say, "Jervis, these teams are not what the Blood bowl community wants. They just don't work."
Instead of, "Quit picking on JJ! He's the almighty creator and can do whatever he wants!"The BBRC should be listening to us and bringing the changes to Fanatic, not the other way around!

I've joined in several conversations about changes and held a civil tongue. I've done alot of helping. The problem comes when I say something isn't up to snuff and right away Milo, Chet or Neo jump down my throat and throw mud. I don't email them, or call them out personally. All I have to do is say, "I think we should quit buying the magazines cuz they are worthless crap." and sudeenly I'll be, insane, a sunnofabitch, unnappreciative and basically a trouble maker. Why? Because I think the game deserves better than what it's getting?

Look at the NAF! Look at all the hard work those guys have done (FOR FREE!!!!) and look at the nice web site, merchandise, and organization they have set up! Look at House Rulz! CyberHare, has put together 4 magazines of better quality and more use than the last 3 BB Mags! So what if he doesn't print it? JJ doesn't physically pront the BB Mag either. What get's sent to the printers is basically the same thing that T.H. sends to us.
So if these ppl can do a better job, for free, than JJ and Andy can, for pay, then I think something is wrong and I'm not ashamed to say so. What did Jervis and Andy put into the last Blood bowl magazine? I don't have it but I can guess based on the 3 that I do have. I bet they have a little intro that says, "Everyone loves all these rules and we rock!" and the Ogre team. How long did all of that take them to do? 2 months? And they want more for that crap than what it costs to buy a mgazine of 100 times the quality, with bigger and more pages! If you think that's what you deserve then, by all means, buy it.

Some of you guys remind of those Star Wars fans that buy anything. "Oooh! Look! An exclusive version of Boba Fett! his arm is posed slightly different than the other version! Woah! only 20 bucks!"

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Post by Milo »

BullBear wrote: I suppose it could be said the Amazons are slightly overpowered (particularly compared to the Norse), but I don't want to debate that. The Lizzy's however, took forever to get something as simple as MB tacked on the Krox. That's an oversight we shouldn't have had to wait over a year for. IMO, if the BBRC misses a common sense rule, make the change immediately, we don't need to wait for Oct (particularly since it doesn't seem as if they're spending all that time playtesting their own new teams...) that's why we have the LRB.
For what it's worth, the BBRC didn't miss this -- we always intended them to have Mighty Blow, but the BBRC is not responsible for formatting the rules for printing, which is where the error occurred. We had already decided to give the Krox Mighty blow -- an editing error at Fanatic prevented him from getting it. I will readily admit that I've been a little disappointed with the quality of the editing done at Fanatic. I know Andy has a lot to do, but the 0-6 Rotters mistake was pretty obvious. I don't know how it slipped through.

If I remember correctly, Mighty Blow was added to the LRB for the Kroxigor pretty quickly. Of course, the printing process being what it is, there's no way to get it into the printed copy sooner.
Also, one could be confused why the skinks are held to the rule of 'stunties' regarding skills sets, throwing range, etc., yet don't have Right Stuff. There seems to be a double standard. These things should've been worked out before charged to the public. Yes, we do have to buy the Mags, or there wouldn't be much for us to do to support Fanantic.
I don't see that as a problem -- it was actually quite intentional. For one thing, the Kroxigor does not have Throw Teammate, and that's no longer a skill that can be acquired, so there's no need for Right Stuff on the Skinks, since there's no one to throw them. Furthermore, Skinks are their supporting cast are better than the Goblins -- some people think they are too good already, but we intentionally did not allow them to have the one turn scoring option that comes with thrown players.
As far as the Necro team, as was recently brought up, I stand by my claim that it's 'silly'. First, no one ever claimed the undead to be broke, so why fix it? If it's to fall in line with WFB, the new teams sure don't reflect that, particularly the vamps. Second, the team makes absolutely no sense w/in GW's own universe. Weres are known to hang with Norse, not the undead. Also, I'm to believe that a necro can animate and regenerate a corpse, but not a 'patched up' one - the flesh golems? Ridiculous. To top it off, only two types on the team get regen, and no apoth for the rest, yet the overpowered vamps get regen and an apoth? WTF?? Where's the logic? So even though I've made no claim to them being broken, their rules and logic are silly and forced.
Thanks for the feedback. The Undead split was decided upon by Jervis and Andy, so we unfortunately didn't have any input in that decision.
Finally, for tonight, BBMAG is not that big. To make errors like saying there can be 6 rotters on the roster, but refering to only 4 in the beast's write up is unexcusable. These types of mistakes make the game seem bush league and confusing to newbies. The BBMags, have unfortunately, become irrelevant as we're forced to go on-line to sort out it's rules. Please, understand that I'm only upset 'cause I enjoy BB greatly, and have higher expectations for the game than what we're given currently.
I agree with you 100% on that one. I don't edit the magazine, though, so I can't control it. I will pass along your concern to Andy, though, and maybe Fanatic can hire some extra editing staff for proof-reading.

For some stuff, like the Annual, the BBRC members do get advance notice and have been able to correct some mistakes. The Mighty Blow on the Krox was reported but not updated by Fanatic. We did the best we could on that one.

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Post by Milo »

Pariah wrote:I said they are pushing them even though they know they are crap.
Milo said that he wouldn't let any of those teams in his league but he thinks we should all buy the magazine.
Pariah -- please find one specific reference where I have encouraged purchase of the Magazine. I have always recommended purchase of the minis from Fanatic, which I do believe are pretty high quality (at least the new stuff: Amazons/Lizards/Khemri/Rotters/Ogres.) I have pointedly NOT said the same about the Magazine.

There's something to be said for voting with your dollars. But you also have to understand that Fanatic is a business, and markets which don't produce revenue won't receive attention. If you want to protest the quality of the magazine, then fine, don't buy it. Take the money you would have put into it and pick up some of the nice new minis. That way you can still support the company but protest a particular product. Trying to get everyone to boycott Fanatic though is just us all shooting outselves in the foot. This is my personal opinion, not my opinion as a BBRC member.
I believe he's saying that he feels the teams are broken...I doubt he will say it that obvertly but that is what this mean, I'm sure.
Sure, I'll come out and say it. I'm not sure if they're all "broken" -- I'm still on the fence about Khemri, but no one in my personal league has played them yet, so I haven't seen them in action yet. I certainly don't think that the Ogre team is well balanced. The Rotters team, as printed, just doesn't make sense to me. It's a better big guy and Chaos Warriors with an extra starting skill. I don't understand why it was printed so close to the starting Chaos roster, when there's more that you could do with it to bring out the Nurgle flavor. (Eww!)
Why would you want to encourage them to make more of the same broken rules? I just don't understand this? And why on Earth would you encourage others to buy products that you claim are sub-standard?
As I mentioned before, I have specifically encourage purchase of the minis, which I think are very nice. I have avoided a similar recommendation of the magazine, though you have been unable to read between those lines, apparently.

I actually have really enjoyed all the parts of the magazine outside the new "experimental" teams, and even the experimental team articles have, uh, nice pictures of the new minis, I guess.
I don't understand. Am I supposed to blindly support JJ because a decade ago he made decent rules once? Sorry, I'm not like that. I expect quality for my money. 3 magazines of shit don't make 1 good magazine and saying that they suck is what we are supposed to do...at least that what the BBRC says. Although, unless you like the rules, they won't like you and will call you immature names, insult your intelligence and coaching abilty, and generally try to paint you as a lunatic.
Okay, I'll admit it. I called Pariah a "son of a bitch" on this site once. It was meant largely in jest, but that frequently does not come across in written form. I apologize to Pariah for my remarks, which although not intended as a personal insult, came across as one. It was wrong of me to voice my personal opinions of Pariah on a public forum, especially when I'm representing the BBRC.

Personally, I resent being called a "yes-man" and am offended by it, but I don't expect to ever get a similar response to that.

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Post by Milo »

Mestari wrote: Here I ride again to defend the BBRC defending the Fanatic:

Because it makes sense. If I was in the BBRC, and I disliked the rules, which option would I choose:

1) To make Pariah and the like happy by openly assaulting Fanatic and fellow BBRC members, thus making them less happy to work with me and less prone to listen to my opinions.

OR

2) To keep in good terms with JJ and the rest of the staff, and to attempt to work face-to-face with them to get the rules changed. If I wanted to point out to JJ that the rules are disliked, I could always point to these discussions. JJ looks them, notices that I'm trying to keep up his side, and is a lot more willing to listen to my opinions than he would if I had joined the mob that's taunting him and his rules.
Careful, Mestari -- you might earn yourself the attention of the "yes-man" police, who seem to think that anyone who says nice things about Fanatic or, heaven forbid, the BBRC, is a criminal! =)

Seriously though, I appreciate the vote of support, not just for me, but the whole BBRC. We are trying to make changes, even if we don't report every step of the process back to TBB.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Milo wrote:I agree with you 100% on that one. I don't edit the magazine, though, so I can't control it. I will pass along your concern to Andy, though, and maybe Fanatic can hire some extra editing staff for proof-reading.
HIRE ... heck Milo, I'm pretty sure that Chet and I would do it for free.

I've never seen a community that drops more of its own time into the coffer for free to support the game than I do for BB.

Between the articles for BB Mag that come free of charge, the fan websites, the NAF, House-Rulez, and the countless hours spent developing things like the PBeM tool, Javabowl, Netbowl, and Tow Bowl to raise interest in the game in general ... I think all you have to do most the times is just ask.

And I'm going to get yelled at by Pariah here, but Pariah, I think if you read carefully Milo agreed with you on a lot of your points. Take a Valium and re-read it all. I for one agree with points made by both of you mostly.

1) Since Fanatic currently doesn't allow testing of the team before they get printed ... I'm glad we have BBRC as a defense against the crap in BB Mag going straight to official.

2) If things don't changes and you don't enjoy the other fluff, then I wouldn't buy BB Mag, plain and simple. Every experimental rule published in the 4 issues so far will most likely undergo some to significant changes before or IF it every enters the LRB. If you know this and don't enjoy the other material, then there is zero reason to buy the Mag, and I wouldn't tell anyone to do so.

3) Now I just said "Don't buy the Mag if" ... but that said, I'd never support a boycott of Fanatic. The pluses of the last year way outweight the negatives, and despite the continous bashing that the BBRC gets, I'd D*MN grateful they are there to make sure the new stuff gets fixed before its official. Being a BBRC member is a job with zero credit or thanks, I appreciate what they do for no money and no respect and a lot of flaming. And Pariah, even you have to agree that without them the game would go into the toliet ... that's all I'm saying here.

4) I'll say it again as have been said multiple times on this post. Andy needs an assistant editor who knows this game fully not casually to help him.

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Post by Ghost of Pariah »

OKay,, first of all the "Boycott Fanatic" thing. I don't consider the minis to be Fanatic. They are Citadel, aren't they? So there ya go, from my point of veiw what has come from Fanatic in the last year (well actually hasn't come unless you are special) is alot of pulp rags that are priced like high gloss Time magazines, broken teams and a rule book that was outdated when it was it printed. So yes, I am boycotting all of that.

As for the minis, well Fanatic is boycotting me. They won't get them to my local store without alot of problems to the retailer. (Basically they tell him what he HAS to order and he refuses to order things he can't sell...like Khemri.) So the only place I can get them is through Mail Order, which owes me $30 still and has never gotten one of my orders right...ever...not one...0-6! So, pardon me if I don't use that service.

As for Milo pushing the mags, I'm sorry, I was wrong. You switched your wording to "Fanatic Products" and then started talking about minis. I missed the fact that the "products" referrence was to the minis because, like I said, I don't see those as Fanatic products.

As for calling you a yes-man...I'm sorry if I did. I never intended to out right call that. I have asked questions like, "If you aren't a yes man then why did you...?" If that's offends yu then I am sorry and i will pose my questions in a less poignant way.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Pariah wrote:OKay,, first of all the "Boycott Fanatic" thing. I don't consider the minis to be Fanatic.
Fanatic's budget and bottom line pays for Mark Bedford's and Phil Bowen's time to scuplt the figs (Fanatic has seperate books from GW). The minis are very very much a Fanatic thing. I only add this in case anyone else thought the minis were a Citadel instead of a Fanatic thing to prevent future confusion on this issue.

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Post by Ghost of Pariah »

GalakStarscraper wrote: I've never seen a community that drops more of its own time into the coffer for free to support the game than I do for BB.
Maybe that's why I expect so much more from the creators and ppl who get paid to do it. Lately it seems like JJ and Andy don't want to do it, and they don't even play the game to my knowledge. It irks me that they are phoning this crap in when a good great deal of us would do it for pay in an instant!
GalakStarscraper wrote: And I'm going to get yelled at by Pariah here, but Pariah, I think if you read carefully Milo agreed with you on a lot of your points. Take a Valium and re-read it all. I for one agree with points made by both of you mostly.
I do agree with alot of what Milo said. Remember that all this flared up again because I said that I agreed with someone else that the Blood Bowl Mag version would become official. All of this started because that statement drove Milo insane or something. I don't see what is wrong with saying that? I believe it. If that bothers Milo then to F'n bad.
GalakStarscraper wrote: 1) Since Fanatic currently doesn't allow testing of the team before they get printed ... I'm glad we have BBRC as a defense against the crap in BB Mag going straight to official.
This is where we differ. To me the BBRC itself is untested and I'm doubting the results more and more everytime they spray me with venom because I say something about their boss. I am glad that they held off any big sweeping changes from coming into the game but I'm also horrified when I see them claim that I am unappreciative or that i don't do anything. I basically tells me that they don't listen.
GalakStarscraper wrote: 2) If things don't changes and you don't enjoy the other fluff, then I wouldn't buy BB Mag, plain and simple. Every experimental rule published in the 4 issues so far will most likely undergo some to significant changes before or IF it every enters the LRB. If you know this and don't enjoy the other material, then there is zero reason to buy the Mag, and I wouldn't tell anyone to do so.
Fair enough and that's what i reccommended to Bull Bear...but when i say it I'm an flower of an undescript sort and we have to have a 20 page thread on "why" I said it.
GalakStarscraper wrote: 3) Now I just said "Don't buy the Mag if" ... but that said, I'd never support a boycott of Fanatic. The pluses of the last year way outweight the negatives, and despite the continous bashing that the BBRC gets, I'd D*MN grateful they are there to make sure the new stuff gets fixed before its official. Being a BBRC member is a job with zero credit or thanks, I appreciate what they do for no money and no respect and a lot of flaming. And Pariah, even you have to agree that without them the game would go into the toliet ... that's all I'm saying here.
In a sense it when I say it that they get pissy. I have never openly attacked the BBRC for what they do. In fact I have expressed my thanks to the organization a hundred times. But if I say, JJ will probably make the ogre team official, I'm an ass.
GalakStarscraper wrote: 4) I'll say it again as have been said multiple times on this post. Andy needs an assistant editor who knows this game fully not casually to help him.
Andy needs to get fired and replaced by somebody who knows how to play Blood Bowl. oops. Was that cause for another thread about why I am a jerk?

Reason: ''
Traitor of the NBA!


I hate you all!
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