A few thoughts on Khemri

[spubbbba]

I once went for block/diving tackle on a mummy (second double).

No doubt there were far better choices, but it was surprisingly good at tying up people when stuck next to another mummy. Lots of bashing!

Under lrb4 I did see a rather effective combo of a diving tackle skeleton paired with a guard mummy. It was a rather effective way to tie up opposing players, but that was back in the days when Khemri fouling was to be really feared so if all you want to do is get away then failing the dodge is not as terrible.

Khemri are one of the few teams I could see as benefiting from KoR. They lack the speed to form an effective cage on a deep kick so do risk getting isolated from the LoS. I don’t see much reason to not have 2 thro-ras on the pitch unless you had some very good skeletons. Plus the added chance to catch the kick if you can get under it is very nice.

[Chris]

Skill picks depend somewhat on format. Short term league very different to perpetual. I would get things like ag on skellies in that format, but for long term would look very much to develop stars not normal skellies.

Good thread, inspired me to try Khemri again, but my is it annoying all the skellies don't get thick skull! (Well and nerves of steel ).

[Hitonagashi]

I don’t see much reason to not have 2 thro-ras on the pitch unless you had some very good skeletons. Plus the added chance to catch the kick if you can get under it is very nice.

Hmm, that I disagree on. To me, the non-blitzra's/cover on the pitch are there to get hit. I keep my thro-ra as a floating reserve to grab the ball, but if I fielded two, that's one less Thick Skull to mark with.

For a marking AV7 piece, I value Thick Skull over +1 MA. And, as a very minor point, it's a fair TV decrease to only run with one..

[mattgslater]

I don't think the TV issue is a big deal. The fortune you save in Guard at low TV lets you bash and bruise with ease, and it's very nice to know you've always got a Block/SH player, meaning you should skill 2 because they're fragile. Besides, you'll be keeping plenty of reserves at higher values; the 30k in extra bench isn't much next to the auto-loss that comes when you receive in the second half down 1 with no Sure Hands and all your MA6 players have POMB.

[spubbbba]

Thro-ras tend to skill up pretty easily (for Khemri) as they will be doing a lot of the scoring and you naturally protect them so they should live longer. Since the passing game is very much a last resort it means that after block they are even more likely to get linemen skills such as tackle and strip ball or kick on defence.

This lets blitz-ras concentrate on the strength skills like guard, MB and PO.

But then I see AG3 throwers like the human and skaven versions as having the same roll by being back up blitzers/linemen.

And as Matt said if you have 2 on offence then you have a back up and can reach every square on the pitch with no GFI.

[mattgslater]

My Human Thrower's not a backup lineman. He starts on the defensive line against all and sundry. He gets hit more than any other player on my team. But there's no way I'd do that with a Thro-Ra, even if I did have an AG3 Skel.

[Juriel]

But surely, Juriel, if your first skill advance on the team was +AG on a Blitz-Ra, wouldn't you just take it and make him into your primary Runner?

That'd be a hard decision. However, consider this: AG3 without reroll is still worse odds than AG2 with one. And going for two level-ups (+AG, then Sure Hands) on a Blitz-Ra just leaves the team lacking in Strength skills, especially when he's hiding behind a cage. And since you're going to want to have both Thro-Ras on the pitch anyway (being your only other MA6 players), it makes all of their skills superfluous (and costly).

Sure, an alternative would be to skip the Thro-Ras (now that you have your ball-Blitz-Ra) and roll with just Skeletons, which would save you 60k in TV (at the cost of needing to GFI with skellies more often, but them having Thick Skull). It'd be an interesting thing to see, but I think a regular Thro-Ra ball-handler + Blitz-Ras with S skills works better.

[crimsonsun]

Glad to see this thread has not slowed down at all!

In answer to why I see KoR as so important to Khemri, its because of how vulnerable they are against Ag based, or fast teams verses the kick skill. Having KoR at least guarantees you can place 2-3 TZ's on the ball even if u fail the pick up roll, not having that can and will often lead to conceding on your receive making the rest of the game very much an uphill struggle, on the other hand verses bash teams a deep kick near your end zone will pull two or three players out of the game for 2/3 turns meaning your out numbered and at increased risk of losing players for the drive. KoR is our best way of counteracting or at least minimising the effects. Even with a nice centrally placed kick KoR can bring a throw-ra next to the player the ball will land under providing him addition protect and positioning before the first turn. For me receiving the ball is our most vulnerable time for conceding TD's and any additional help I can use to mitigate this is worth its weight in gold!

Doubles and statistic increases:
Tomb Guardians: Block over anything, frenzy (for punch though the lines!), Tackle (Makes Ag 3 players think twice about running from him), dodge (not that great at higher tv's as most blockers have tackle) Side step with guard could be fun. +str only if has block, +av maybe as 5/6th and on 6+4 roll.

Throw-Ra's: +Ag always!! +Ma nearly always, +str yes but I would alter build to suit a sweeper/ball sacker roll. Doubles Dodge, helps with survivability and gives a 75% chance to escape a tz if your desperate. Guard (not hugely useful when in possession but could be vital in defence) Sidestep (makes sidelines safer) Stand firm (Same as side step, depends how u use him) things I would consider sure feet, diving catch (with Kick off return could be helpful, and something im considering partnered with NoS and Dump off Throw Ra) Mighty Blow (On plus strength ball sacker) and Diving tackle. (on a ball sacker)

Blitz Ra's: +str always, + ag only if very early but will totally change his advancement, +Ma as a late skill or 95% of the time if he has +ag. Doubles Jump up (any time after Mighty blow on a killer yeah it will fail you maybe once a game but its so worth while for extra movement or free dodges and opponents will avoid following up against him) Dodge (4th on a MB, Guard, SF Blitz Ra or 5th on a killer) other skills such as Side step, sprint, sure feet are worth considering with +Ag (side step with +str and guard or on a frenzy crowd surfer)

Skeletons: Stat +str only all others are bloat, but if had + str all would be worth it, I would take Av before Ma to help him verses hits but increasing his move would be good, a str 4 ag 3 would be cool as well!
Doubles Depends on builds:-
Block Skeletons: Guard, Side Step, Dodge in that order.
Skeleton with Wrestle: Diving Tackle, Jump Up
Dirty Player: Sneaky git, Dodge, Jump up
+Str Skeleton: Mighty Blow, Guard, Dodge, Side Step or Stand Firm.

Regarding deployment of throw ra's for me it depends on who i am facing, I will always field at least one, if I am receiving then both will nearly always come into play, when kicking if I have a comfortable numerical advantage then both will come out but if i am facing bash it can often be better to keep one on the bench so I have a player who can pick up the ball when i receive. But I would never treat them as an additional lineman in this team they are far far to important to the team in the mentioned example of human throwers its not so much of an issue as all your players bar the ogre have a 66% chance of picking up the ball, this is something Khemri cannot rely on. My Throw-Ra's if fielded when kicking will hang behind players, if i am pressing an area of the pitch then they will place them selves directly behind another unmarked player forming columns or if fielding one who is skilled for taking down ball carriers, then he will be at my centre and be my furthest player back, making only short moves in the direction that the play is heading so is he able to cut off any players that can break through. He will not commit unless I have no other option and will be nowhere near the bulk of the opposing side, if I manage to free the ball from my opposition then I will establish a loose cage around the area before bringing him in to collect. When used in receiving the ball I make sure the 2 throw-ra's are always covering each other initially while I bring the ball the the safety of my team, once there the non ball carrier will drop off slightly keeping just behind or sometimes ahead of the main drive to provide me a back up if something goes wrong.

So what set up do you all use when kicking/ vs bash/Ag/balanced??? I have 1 defensive set up I really like which has slight variations depending on who its against but when on offence i tend to make it up as I go along?

What are your basic tactics on offence and defence, are they specific plays you will always attempt?

So we have discussed our positional players in detail, but how many players do you like in your team overall and in what league/competition format? Also do you design specific skeletons or even positionals for your bench, eg a fouling specialist, a pass blocking tackle, diving tackle marker for Ag teams, or maybe a KoR, Tackle, Guard, SF skeleton for protecting the ball??

Thanks Crimsonsun

[Juriel]

I'm with Crimsonsun on KoR being important. Elves are your bane, since one mistake will doom the whole match, so minimizing the chances at that most vulnerable time (when they kick the ball deep), seems like a really good idea. And occasionally the skill will even let you get under the ball for a lucky catch attempt!

[Smeborg]

Hi again, crimsonsun, you have the very interesting ramble down to a fine art.

So what set up do you all use when kicking/ vs bash/Ag/balanced??? I have 1 defensive set up I really like which has slight variations depending on who its against but when on offence i tend to make it up as I go along?

For me, Khemri are a team (like Nurgle) with a variable defensive set-up. The basic variable, which I am sure is familiar to Khemri coaches, is whether to put 3 Skellies (vs. heavy bash or Claw teams) or 2 TGs and 1 Skelly (vs. lighter/faster teams) on the LoS. Some (many?) coaches like to put TGs 1 square back from the LoS to discourage follow-ups on the LoS. I don't usually favour this, as I like to make penetration of the second line as difficult as possible (thus I keep 2-4 TGs in second line 2 squares back. I will normally put the B-Ras in the wide zones, 2 squares back, to maximise opportunities in the event of a Blitz result on the kick-off table (or an early turnover). B-Ras backed by T-Ras (for maximum mobility of each wing, especially if not attacked directly). Against Frenzy teams, I will consider the "Khemri wall" defense, with 2 TGs in the "shoulder" positions (edge of middle zone, 2 squares back), and 2 TGs in the wide zones, 3 squares back, 1 squares in, with the B-Ras also in the wide zones in front of them ) 2 squares back, 2 squares in. Whichever of these defensive systems I use, the goal is simply to force the opponent to go through a ST5 player if he wants to penetrate my backfield directly without dodging. This defense gains somewhat in potency as the team gains Guard and Tackle, and especially if you can get 2 Block TGs (naturally). When putting TGs on the line, these are always the least developed.

When setting up on offense, I will normally try to minimise commitment of players to blocking on the LoS. 3 for the block and 1 for the blitz, with all remaining players set to screen, penetrate or cage. Little room for error here, I suggest (unless the opponent is as slow, or slower, than Khemri).

What are your basic tactics on offence and defence, are they specific plays you will always attempt?

I think I might go one further than you and say that I make it up on both offense and defense as I go along! I think that's in the nature of the slowest and clumsiest teams - you are always applying pressure indirectly, trying to crank the pressure up, and seeking to exploit the opportunities created by your opponent's last move. I think I can say with confidence that there are no set plays that I will always attempt (perhaps the lone exception is how I play a 2-turn score attempt - this is a true exception as the opponent cannot get a turnover score without a Blitz result on the kick-off table). I aim to control space to the max on both offense and defense, on defense I will typically mark a lot (but not always), on offense I will choose my moment to mark up and then do so to the max. On offense, if I have gone (say) 5 turns without making a good breakthough, I will consider risky tactics to put at least a couple of players into Receiver position. In general on offense, I like to have someone in Receiver position most of the time, as a threat for my opponent to deal with, to help the movement of the cage if he takes the bait. I do not rely on any specialist players, whether on offense of defense, I am prepared to do anything with anybody; this keeps the opponent guessing and is why I like "generalist" players. For me the slow and clumsy teams die the moment your every move is telegraphed to the opponent. On offense, 1.5 squares per turn should be the average advance of the cage, against most opponents. Less than this and you will not make it to the end zone.

When caging, TGs at the front, and B-Ras at the back of the cage generally works best (if you have the luxury). But that is not a specifically Khemri formation, it applies to all heavy bash teams.

Wild results on the kick-off table, wild weather, or early turnovers, can play havoc with Khemri (compared to other teams). You have to be prepared to change tack radically and think on your feet.

So we have discussed our positional players in detail, but how many players do you like in your team overall and in what league/competition format? Also do you design specific skeletons or even positionals for your bench, eg a fouling specialist, a pass blocking tackle, diving tackle marker for Ag teams, or maybe a KoR, Tackle, Guard, SF skeleton for protecting the ball??

14 players seems the theoretical best number to me, I aim to get there ASAP. I don't like less, as AV7 players are easy to put in the dugout, you can get unlucky on Regen and KO recovery rolls. Plus I like to be able to foul without worrying about depleting reserves. I am very much prepared to go to 15 or even 16 players if the league is killy, especially if I know I will not often be getting inducements. In a re-set tournament, 13 players seems about right, but this is very format-dependent: if the format allows, 14 players would seem to be very nice (for fouling).

I don't develop specialists in general, the exception would be a D-P Skelly as fouling specialist (but he does not need further skills). And I give higher priority to developing general purpose defensive Skellies (Block, Fend, [Tackle]). But much of that is theorybowl, as my Skellies are typically very retarded in development, and rarely get beyond 1 skill (the other players do fine). I don't bother to take risks to develop Skellies - it always fails. Bear in mind also that I play in shorter formats than you. Quasi-specialist players will of course be created by stat increases and/or doubles rolls on the positional players.

Hope that answers your questions. All the best.

[spubbbba]

I don’t rate sneaky kit as worth taking as a doubles skill. In fact if it was a normal skill I’d still have reservations about its usefulness.

The benefits really don’t make the 30TV cost worthwhile and if you combine it with dirty player then your 40K fodder skeleton is now 90K. Plus he’s no better than a rookie at anything bar fouling.

[mattgslater]

Sneaky Git is underpowered. If it applied to all AV rolls, rather than just failed AV rolls, leaving ejection on injuries only, it would be a good skill for halflings, and a faintly passable doubles pick on a Dirty Player. But as is, it's just an extra paragraph in the rulebook.

Vs. ST3, I like to run TGs one square apart when I want to really control space. Can't get 2 assists....

[swilhelm73]

I don’t rate sneaky kit as worth taking as a doubles skill. In fact if it was a normal skill I’d still have reservations about its usefulness.

Really?

The most difficult part of fouling is getting enough assists to make the foul worth the risk of being thrown out without breaking armor.

Sneaky Git means you don't have to worry about that, and can feel free to throw unassisted fouls.

So you will get in more fouls with decreased risk. Worth 20k on a fling or gobbo certainty. Khemri skellies might be a decent choice too with MV5 and only 70k cost for that one skill.

[dode74]

AV is the calculated AV including assists. Odds at even AVs assume you will take DP to get the foul to work (which may or may not apply, ofc).

SG is worth it, imo. DP/SG is the only time the odds of a cas come close to parity with the odds of being sent off (best at AV5, so 2 assists on a WD for example). I have a DP/SG zombie on my Necro team and feel I can use him with impunity.

[Smeborg]

Sneaky Git is a strange skill - it only works when you fail in what you are attempting! I regard it as almost useless when gang fouling, but useful if your style of play allows for a once-per-turn foul at (relatively) poor odds. For example, a move to mark a prone opponent (who would otherwise be unmarked) can usefully be turned into a foul as the last action of the turn if you have S-Git. So you should only take it if you play (or are prepared to play) in that sort of way. So not for everybody.

Hope that helps.