A few thoughts on Khemri

[crimsonsun]

To be honest, I am yet to take Sneaky Git since I have been playing on cyanide, my only experience with it with from LRB4 via TT, as there is always something the team needs more, also it has to do with the way I 'normally' foul, if I am stamping on a player its is with 3+ assists because I want to remove him from the pitch, only late game if I outnumber/games decided will I foul without having planned it into my turn first. (Or if i am frustrated, but that means I will get sent off on a 1,1 lol.) I can see its use though, just skeletons are hard to level much to begin with and the highest I have got one is to star player before he died two matches later, normally my guys have on average 2 skills in a 2000ish TV environment, but some will be rookies, and some will have 3skills that levelling seems to cycle constantly.

Another question to put out there, are there any teams you feel Khemri struggle against at low-mid-high TV? Do you have any strategy's to counteract these, or do you just make it up as you go along??

I am intending to answer all my own questions, I am just interested to hear how other coaches do it before I begin 'EPIC POST no. xxx' lol

Many thanks Crimsonsun

[Smeborg]

Some further comments on Khemri practical play for crimsonsun.

The Khemri cage moves slowly but surely. Lack of Block on the TGs is compensated by their extra ST (if we compare them, say, to Nurgle). Cage movement can be somewhat hazardous because of this, but works well enough if you are not over-ambitious

Desperate plays on offense seem to come more often than for other races, at least when the team is under development. The main difference for Khemri on such plays is the need to plan for failure when moving the ball, which leads to a different way of doing things. As an example, the other day I made a typical Khemri coach mistake at the end of a game (not having played them for some time). Having gained turnover ball on turn 15, I made a Short Pass with my Thro-Ra to a Skelly 6 squares away (and 9 squares from the End Zone), with a RR in hand. 5/12 chance of success and a near-certain TD (he would have been hard for my opponent to reach and bring down). It failed. I would have been better off moving the Skelly 4 squares towards the End Zone and making a Long Pass to him there. Much lower odds of a successful pass, to be sure, but high odds of being able to pick up the loose ball and score on turn 16. Few other races would do it like this (at AG3, they would have had a 79% chance of the Short Pass succeeding, not 42%). Similar considerations apply when forced to dodge with ball, hand-off etc. Play for success, plan for failure.

Desperate plays on defense (for example dodging to blitz) are relatively common, and TBH are the only way sometimes to keep your opponent honest and your team in the game. I like to GFI rather a lot with the slow teams on both offense and defense (I notice I do this more than other coaches of the same teams). GFI is a rare area of equality with other races, thus is there to be exploited.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Another question to put out there, are there any teams you feel Khemri struggle against at low-mid-high TV? Do you have any strategy's to counteract these, or do you just make it up as you go along??

At low to mid TV I fear all the teams with AG4 players, especially if they have the means to assault the caged ball directly. Next (but not as bad) would be the fast or fastish teams without AG4, because of their ability to pounce on the inevitable loose ball. I do not fear Claw, but typically I do not face many Claw teams in my environments, and they are not well-developed. Hence my penchant for Tackle.

[Smeborg]

Another question for crimsonsun in his forthcoming epic post no. XXX.

Could you explain how you use KoR? I mean, how you position your players for both the success and failure of the pick-up? I was planning to take KoR last season, but doubles and stat increases got in the way. I was surprised that I found ways to manage fine without it.

[crimsonsun]

I tend to screen my advance over caging, which I find too slow and cumbersome with are low AG and MA leading too a a next of tackle zones blocking us in. I tend to form a large screen, that the rear of is cover by tackle is possible until I can remove a player or three so I can make a columned path for my Throw-Ra. With SF, Frenzy and guard amongst TG you pen the bulk of the opposing teams players up very efficiently making attempts verses your ball carrier very difficult.

I have no fear of claw either, POW for POW we may lose ground initially but over a match will will normally gain the upper hand and are more likely to come out better from the match, as we regenerate so half the casualties they cause have no effect, have players we do not care if die or get sent off who have DP which is combined with PO is 3chances at injuring your prime target in one round, and we are stronger than them meaning they cannot afford to get into a big scrum with us, something most chaos coaches do not seem to realise. yeah they have CLPOMB but we have fend wrestle skellies. It is fast teams that can cause me the most trouble, at lower the TV the worse, any mistake or nufflling and your screwed, but on the other hand a few early casualties in our favour will quickly turn into a slaughter. The higher the TV the better i find, as we have skills to bring them down, and to hurt them efficiently but there will always be the risk of failed pickups, and a bad bounce and you have a real up hill struggle.

I far prefer defending with khemri, I feel far more at risk when I Receive. If playing against bash I use my skeletons to play TZ on strong slow players angled away from the main action and form into columns in front of there advance but leave the centre of the field more open which is where I envelop the other team in TG's and pick off there danger players. normally dispossessing them. I have always then attempted to score but this can risk losing the ball giving the other coach the chance to score as your team will be over committed and thus not able to stop them breaking, but lately I have been making no attempts to play the ball in important matches, forming defensively around it and not letting the other team anywhere near it, once in this position I have not yet conceding with Khemri. Against Ag I field a 3-4-4 skeletons-TG-B/T-Ras's. I realise you cannot hope to stop them scoring normally, but if you can make them pay sorely for the privialige, I often will be happy for them to stall until half way thru the half if it means I can hit them some more. So when receiving we are likely up by a player or two giving us the ability to block routes to the ball more effectively, and once secured most Ag teams do not have the power to get past our defensive grid. allowing us a ponderously crunching route to the end zone. it becomes alot more risky if you only have 2-3turns left as u require the ball to be moving twice as fast as the TG's are able so they are far more vulnerable, so you need a back up ball carrier, i normally attempt a hard drive down the flank in a diagonal patter cordoning off the part of the pitch.

One thing I think you learn very quickly playing khemri is to go all things that done in a very Turn Over concious fashion, making sure you get all you can do for protection/pressure before rolling any dice, as an early TO is another TD conceded due to being unable to redeploy our team once out of position, but saying that I dodge quite alot with players in this squad, if you have a re-roll it will come off 75% of the time and normally catches the other coach totally by surprise. At early TV's its is IMO and uphill struggle, but the higher the tv the better i have found it, I predict this will cap off around 2500k mark but ive not gone that high. At this level nurgle can be a complete pain, which you are to them as well, and orcs, high strength 9+guard and our lack of claw. Nurgle are a nightmare due to handling the ball, combined with our identical play style i find like chaos we can normally grind them down, albeit tougher, and injuries are alot less damaging, as our positional players have the core skill they need to full fill there function, which a chaos player of any type is far more of a liability at higher tv. I find it pays off to target any rotter's first, as they are the easiest to remove, which will quickly reduce there ability to take out our players. Fend, Wrestle skeletons are awesome here, tying up PO players. Other undead teams can be a pain at mid to high TV. necro with claw and speed, while undead are a pain being able to mark us and having the strength to break though and the Ag to exploit any mistakes we make. I find dwarfs, goblins, halflings, ogres, humans, and norse to be good match ups at any TV as they will struggle to overcome our strength, chaos get worse, but as high as i have played they are manageable. Amazons are a complete nightmare early as are lizards but the high the tv the easier the match up, Elves start hard, get easy then become are hardest match to win, skaven are ok a any tv but if your unlucky with ball handling you will get thrashed, but they are great for getting casualties. Special mention on Goblins they can cause alot of damage but will get owned by us, make sure you take out there weapons very quickly.

I think the most important thing with Khemri is to keep them working as one, not getting spread out too far, and keeping ur team behind the ball, and blitz/throw-ra's free from TZ's so you can mitigate the harm caused by ag2, oddly i do tend to gfi a lot with khemri, and have pulled off some desperate plays, at high TV i had alot of joy with a nerves of steel passblock catch throw ra, which is not what the other coach expects, but when playing important matches i will play over cautiously when it comes to offensive play with the ball, and overly aggressive when it comes to trying to remove memebers of the other team and this can really make me do stupid mistakes if I cannot take them out, it becoming my vendetta because they had the nerve not to get hurt.

God i am off on one again.. will leave it there for now until i think of something else to ramble on about!

Another question for crimsonsun in his forthcoming epic post no. XXX.

Could you explain how you use KoR? I mean, how you position your players for both the success and failure of the pick-up? I was planning to take KoR last season, but doubles and stat increases got in the way. I was surprised that I found ways to manage fine without it.

Depends on I am playing against, if against bash I place 1 deep and 1 5-6 squares away from the LoS, I also place a skeletons squares from the half way line five squares from the edge. Against Ag place them middle, but wide, and make sure I have at least three skeletons to obstruct there path and give cover. KoR effectively gives each throw ra MA 9 possibly eleven, I will normally move the closer one first covering the ball along with the skeleton screen while my pick up is the last thing i do before fouling. Ag teams are unlikely to kick close the half way line because that risks pain, hence the deeper deployment, bash teams can pressure the ball if its close to the centre so i will normally use the gained movement to retreat the ball slightly until I can gain a area of control. but I keep 1 deep in case as well those extra squares really make it alot faster to protect the ball, and if the kicks central you can create a screen for the ball before turn 1, which is a life saver if they got a blitz.

On skills quickly, i really dislike leader, it is a wasted increase, there are so many skills that can make a useful player exception, that i would rather just pay for the re-roll. How many re-rolls do you like?? I start with three go up to four, once nearish tv2000 drop down to three again.

Benchwise, I dont have fouling players, all my non +str skeletons get DP. so thats in my basic design, I like to have a throw-ra in reserve when kicking verses bash so as to maintain a ball carrier for my drive. I would like to train some tackle, diving tackle. block pass block skeletons vs ag teams but I dont know if they will be any good. I like a kick, wrestle, tackle/guard reserve, otherwise more fend wrestle/block/DP. 14 is a good number for the team, 15 at higher tv's giving us four reserves. I never fill slot 16 due to starplayers.

Inducement wise, while im on the subject, what do u like/find useful? Wizard fails me more than not so I have not taken him lately, I never had an igor work, and nor would I buy one. vs bash 2 babes can be the difference between winning and losing. at early development Re-rolls are great, I like a DP mercenary at low tv with a bribe. I think vampire boy would be very useful, but his cost high, same with ramtut. Playing cyanide i really miss hack n slash wonderfully cheap yet effective against ag teams that are trouble early on. Nek is a bargin IMO and a good rear tackler.

Ok thats enough this time! crimsonsun

[Smeborg]

Inducement wise, while im on the subject, what do u like/find useful? Wizard fails me more than not so I have not taken him lately, I never had an igor work, and nor would I buy one. vs bash 2 babes can be the difference between winning and losing. at early development Re-rolls are great, I like a DP mercenary at low tv with a bribe. I think vampire boy would be very useful, but his cost high, same with ramtut. Playing cyanide i really miss hack n slash wonderfully cheap yet effective against ag teams that are trouble early on. Nek is a bargin IMO and a good rear tackler.

Agree with the above. 2 Babes are outstanding, Igor I don't think I've taken yet for Khemri, Wizard I will consider against AG (to bring down the ball carrier if exposed with a Lightning Bolt, also to hurt him), but not as useful against bash, unless very slow. DP Merc with Bribe outstanding at low TV before you have DP Skellies. I rarely take Stars, but Sinnedbad, Hack and Setekh are all good in the right match-up. SWs as usual really require Bribe back-up. If (say) TGs or B-Ras are missing the game, I will consider a Merc with skill before Stars.

[Smeborg]

OK, just to make sure this thread does not become unduly technical, here are some ideas for Khemri names that I came up with yesterday. My team used to be called Tomb'n'Gloom, but I have now settled on the more politically correct Raging Ragheads. In keeping with this theme, I have Blitz-Rags and Thro-Rags (or Toe-Rags when they drop the ball, which of course they do more often than not).

The Tomb Guardians begin with Basher al-Asad and his brother Masher al-Asad.

Then there is Sheikh Izbir (famous Khemri playright) and his easily riled brother Don't Sheikh Izbir.

There are quite a few culinary Khemri, including Gordon Ramses, Fish & Cheops, Cheops with Everything, not forgetting their Japanese cousin Miso-Amen.

Tut-Tut Moses III Jr. insists he was a famous general ("the Napoleion of Khemri").

Ma & Ptah.

Living in de Nile.

Ali Baa-Baa (sheepish Khemri, I live in New Zealand).

To continue the theme of political correctness, the first D-P Skelly will be called Late Period (angry feminist Khemri). [As all scholarly TFF members will know, Khemri history is conventionally divided into Early, Middle and Late Periods.]

All the best.

[Heff]

How about the carry on angle

Rubber te te

[crimsonsun]

Lol its way too early for my brain to be working correctly yet, so won't add anything more....

[Chris]

I have no fear of claw either, POW for POW we may lose ground initially but over a match will will normally gain the upper hand and are more likely to come out better from the match, as we regenerate so half the casualties they cause have no effect, have players we do not care if die or get sent off who have DP which is combined with PO is 3chances at injuring your prime target in one round, and we are stronger than them meaning they cannot afford to get into a big scrum with us, something most chaos coaches do not seem to realise.

Chaos I find is most dangerous when min maxed at middling TV and maxed out with killer skills at high tv. Both can't really be matched in bashing, merely endured and hope the dice go against 'em.

[crimsonsun]

I really do not find min maxed chaos teams a worry at all, at monsterous TV they are something to really concern us, but min max by its very nature has no bench, so they can be picked off one at a time, out numbered they cannot match khemri for strength, and also there players are really difficult to level and very hard to replace, we don't have this issue chaos players tend to be far more concerned about there mortality once its demostrated to them than any other team I've played against, in a lot of ways if min maxing they have it coming. I can happily cripple kill half there team, and I might lose a player or three but that does not bother me in the slightest, while there team will be left crippled or way to vunerable. In MM games I have only had 1+ 2000 tv chaos team not quit on me by half time because they have lost players, and that was because I had gravely offended nuffle somehow and was literally failing every other dice roll.

Thanks crimsonsun

[Chris]

Maybe you haven't encountered such a team. It lurks in the low TV area in MM. Typically between 1200 and 1350. 11 players, 2 re-rolls, 15-20 'kill' skills, the extreme ones going without block until they have MB and PO. A comparable 'normal' Khemri team will have a 1/3 of the skills, and normally only on the throwers and blitzers. Deaths aren't too much of a problem as it keeps the TV down! Not generally a feature in a league as not that good at winning against many teams (having only one trick).

[crimsonsun]

I dont think I have run into 'killer' chaos at that tv, normally the min/max lists are 1650-1800, but I am yet to see a chaos team in that environment that has 12 players, in fact most have 9 and a few journeymen. It just seems to me they are asking for trouble, all it takes is one good turn to kill/cripple 3 or four and the whole teams pretty much had it, and they have no chance of winning the game. They normally have from my point of view a very poor mentality, as in they want to kill and maim other teams but rage, Dc or just moan if you hurt one of there prizes. I love killing players, pure and simple but I laugh when mine go as well, carnage for its own sake, but really if someone plays a team designed to hurt players expect it back from time to time, and yeah no one likes it when nuffle dominates a game but it happens to everyone once in a while, if that mean half your team ends up dead, well its time for some fresh (dried up in our case) blood to take to the field nothing like some new players to open up new options and give a team a new dynamic. Anyway that is enough off topic, i am going to hunt for a match!

crimsonsun

[mattgslater]

The problem with that build is that no matter how good the coach, sometimes the bear eats you. And while the minmax Chaos build is good at recovering from a whoppin' for the next match, a good positioning team can force you to get lucky early or get embarrassed.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3208809

I probably could have won this game 2-0, but I figured that toying with what I believe to be the best coach in the world because his team is cheeseball was just too much fun to pass up on.

[Chris]

Curse you thread. Got a double 6 on TG, took block. Then of course have got a normal double