Undead advice wanted! [NTBB league]

Shteve0 · Post by **Shteve0** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:44 am

Hi guys! Starting this week, I'll be playing in a league that uses Plasmoid's NTBB rules as an experiment. I'd be really grateful for feedback on the below 'plan'.

I've decided to go with Undead since I've got the models with me and I've never played them before. For the unitiated, NTBB Undead look as follows (skellies eliminated as I don't have the figures):

0-16 Zombies 40k 4328 Regen G/ASP
0-4 Ghouls 70k 7337 Dodge GA/SP
0-2 Wight 90k 6338 Block, Regen GS/AP
0-2 Mummy 120k 3519 Grab, Regen GS/AP
Rerolls 70k.

I've gone with a 3xReroll, 2xMummy, 2xWight, 3xGhoul and 4xZombie line up. My first planned purchases will be a spare Zombie 12th player, then a Ghoul, unless I need to make early replacements.

The league is 16 games plus playoffs and looks like being quite a squishy, elf heavy environment, so I'll be building accordingly. It helps a great deal that the league here plays a chosen MVP rule.

For the Mummys, that G access leads me to Block > MB > Guard. Should I consider doubles, +MA or +ST here? I expect skill slots to be limited to two or three on players across the board, and a pair of ST5 Block/MB/Grab/Regen players at 160k apiece and without negatraits seems pretty optimal.

Ghouls are more interesting. I like the idea of going 1 block, 1 wrestle, 1 block, 1 wrestle, then going for different builds (if they survive long enough)
1) marker - wrestle, diving tackle, tackle
2) ball hunter - wrestle, strip ball
3) runner - block, sure hands
4) blitzer - block, tackle
Any ghoul rolling doubles first gets MB then goes down route 4. Initially, block ghouls should guard the wings on defence and run the ball on offense - wrestlers to mark catchers from deep of defence and act as a mobile part of the screen on offense.

For wights, I'll definitely want Guard first, but then I'm not sure. I like Stand Firm, but vs Elves, tackle also sticks out (so to speak). I see these guys as mobile facilitators more than hitters - sort of 'utility men' - with the block and tackle beneficial for their passive aspects as much as anything else.

First skilled Zombie gets dirty player, three others get block if they skill up. Zombies are there to be a nuisance, nothing more. With the NTBB house ruled sneaky git though (sent off SG just goes to KO box), any double zombie is in line to get that.

My basic in game strategy is to aim for the 2-1, perhaps kicking first. Early on, anyone who gets a Cas is an MVP target, prioritised by (Mummy or Wight) > Zombie > Ghoul, depending on who has what, and who I'm facing next. Ghouls are primary scorers due to the MA7.

What do you think? Any advice on this? It's all theory as I've never played undead before, but if I can ramp up the mummys I think I'll be in good shape. I realise I have little use for stat boosts or doubles above. I guess wights would take +ST or +AG, I think ghouls possibly only +AG, and Zombies +ST. Anything else stick out?

Sorry such a long post. Any and all advice appreciated!

Cheers!

Steve

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:59 pm

Frenzy on a Wight or Zombie. 2x Grab Mummy + Frenzy player = easy chains for downfield line-blocks and a 1TTD game to rival Skaven.

Grab isn't that powerful a skill on its own, but 2x starting Grab on ST5 with GS access and no anti-skills is very mighty indeed. Hopefully you'll have lots of fun figuring out why.

Mango · Post by **Mango** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:16 am

For wights, I'll definitely want Guard first, but then I'm not sure.

After testing Guard on wights I found it to be a suboptimal pick. It ment that the wights got stuck on the line in a bash fest instead of being a mobile hitter/runner support.

These are the Wight combinations I have tried past 2 skills
MB, Tackle, Pileon, Pro, Jumpup
Tackle, Jump up, MB, Stand Firm
Tackle, MB, Frenzy
MB, Frenzy, Dodge, Pile on
Guard, Tackle, MB, Grab, Stand Firm

I have found that depending on my future opponents I usually advance 1 with MB, then tackle. The other gets Tackle and then MB. If I am playing agaist alot of dodge then the tackle one comes first, otherwise the MB one comes first.

I wouldnt put guard on a wight until maybe 4th skill, I prefer to hit with the wights and have the rest of the team as the support.

Pile on as a 3rd skill can do some damage but you have to make sure the rest of the eam can cope without the player being on his feet for a turn, but having another chance to take out that important opposition player (who is generally AG4 and can dodge away from your standing player anyway) can be invaluable.

Here are 2 teams I have played in the past to give you an idea of the entire team, dont forget to check out the dead too, alot of players in there

http://www.iforce.bloodbowlleague.com/d ... p=ro&t=red
http://www.brisbane.bloodbowlleague.com ... p=ro&t=red

Shteve0 · Post by **Shteve0** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:27 am

Thanks guys, certainly food for thought.

Matt, I can see the frenzy argument, and I'm looking forward to Blocking up the Grab mummies for sure

Mango - I'm unlikely to be taking Guard on the Mummies, and that's my concern. Would you go Block/Guard instead of Block/MB on them instead? It's only a short league, so I want to plan no more than 2 skills ahead. I guess that would allow me to MB/Tackle the Wights, though. Interesting.

How much do you guys foul with Undead, btw? On average? Would you agree an early Dirty Player is a good move?

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:25 pm

M-Blow+P-On would make Plasmoid's Mummies very killy, if that's the way you want to go (cannot be Fended away).

Shteve0 · Post by **Shteve0** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:19 am

Hi Smeborg

I don't know, that kinda means I'd push Block back on the dev line. I'm kind of inclined to think that Block/MB is a better alternative for the killy build, Block/Guard for the sticky build, particularly given the slight nerf to POn in the NTBB rules and the fast teams I expect to face.

Anyone know what the removal probabilities are for Block vs MB and Block+MB va MB+NTBBPOn? It's not the be all and end all, but it'd be interesting to see.

Cheers

S

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:40 am

Your having explained all that... no wonder there are more fairy coaches in this care bear environment! *rye snicker*

Shteve0 · Post by **Shteve0** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:53 am

Aha! Digger! Mr Undead himself!

Come on, chip in, give me something to work with

What would you do with the build?

Mango · Post by **Mango** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:07 am

Shteve0 wrote: Mango - I'm unlikely to be taking Guard on the Mummies, and that's my concern. Would you go Block/Guard instead of Block/MB on them instead?

Without looking at the specifics of your league rules I have found that mummies are a great wall to build a defence around, having guard really helps support your weaker zombies and helps get them into the game with 2db's and just makes it very hard for opponents to get through that wall.

MB is great in theory on the mummies but their strengh is actually in just remaining standing and owning a section of the board, casualties are nice but generally the models that are against the mummies are the plebs or high armour anyway so just getting them on the ground is enough. Having MB on the wights though allows you to sniper weaker armour models like catchers or have a chance to get positionals off the field.

Overall I would be happy to compromise and have Guard/block mummies (if they dont have MB) and have the MB/Tackle on the wights

Edit - Also consider against AG teams they will dodge easily away from the mummies and unless you are going to blitz with them then the MB is useless. With the Mb on the wights they have enough movement to pinpoint a specific player and keep up with the action. Also having a wight blitz and move into position and then maybe just moving a mummy to support (with guard) means the tackle of the wight is harder to move and can influence your opponent into either not dodging/wasting a TRR or performing a sub optimal play.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:48 am

Shteve0 wrote:Hi Smeborg

I don't know, that kinda means I'd push Block back on the dev line. I'm kind of inclined to think that Block/MB is a better alternative for the killy build, Block/Guard for the sticky build, particularly given the slight nerf to POn in the NTBB rules and the fast teams I expect to face.

Anyone know what the removal probabilities are for Block vs MB and Block+MB va MB+NTBBPOn? It's not the be all and end all, but it'd be interesting to see.

Cheers

S

Sorry, I didn't notice that Mummies get General skill access in this system. That's a different kettle of fish. But the killy option would still be to go M-Blow, P-On, Block (I won't say it's best, but it's the most killy).

I regard the proposed team as broken. Non-Loner Big Guys with Block on a normal skill roll are broken, even more so on a cheap team. This is confirmed in tournaments allowing doubles skills (e.g. the World Cup, which allowed 2 doubles skills, and surprise, surprise, Undead were the best performing team).

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:45 pm

Shteve0 wrote:Aha! Digger! Mr Undead himself!

Come on, chip in, give me something to work with

What would you do with the build?

Hmmmm, if you could paint up just two skeletons:

3x Zombie (Block, Dauntless; although the Wrestle, Pro "tar baby" is interesting)
2x Skeletons (my linebackers; speed 5 is needed; Wrestle and/or Strip Ball and/or DP and/or tackle)
2x Ghouls (block, fend, sure hands in some order on one; wrestle, strip ball on another)
2x Wights (as your most mobile, go ahead and take MB, then tackle, on both)
2x Mummies (for simple survival: Block; then MB/Break Tackle/Guard)
3x RR

Be circumspect about fouling till you have extra zombies/skellies....
Introduce second pair of ghouls when able and specialize the pairs as replacements....

Not that it matters to the overall situation, but I wouldn't muck with the mummies to address Undead "dominance"... I would take away a pair of ghouls.... (No one should have access to more than two positionals....)

Helps?

spubbbba · Post by **spubbbba** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:36 pm

The only thing I’d add is don’t waste zombie doubles on Sneaky Git, it is still a mediocre skill at best.

Guard will stand you in far better stead and you will struggle to get it on mummies since they will skill up much slower and have block and MB as rival skills.

Shteve0 · Post by **Shteve0** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:51 pm

Thanks guys.

Played my first game last night vs Humans (4 blitzer, 1 Ogre, 2 Thrower, 4 Linemen). My opponent opted to kick so for the first half I ran a slow moving cage up the left flank, shunting three opponents into the crowd (2CAS) but suffering three KOs and a zombie BH in the process of scoring turn 8. The Mummys caused havoc with Grab, despite being unable to break armour.

Second turn I started a player down, as despite two attempts to recover my KOd players only one came back. Long story short, despite flawless block rolls I struggled to break armour (something of a common story with me) getting a legitimate Cas only with a ghoul on both down and suffering another cas and two more KOs through the half. Nevertheless, with Two mummys tying up 5 opponents wrongsided on the halfway line, I prevented the score and was an idiot not to score myself (forgot the option to GFI. Why does that happen?). My wights were anonymous throughout, sadly.

So, though it's too early to draw serious conclusions, I don't think for a moment you're wrong, Smeborg. The mummys were monstrous, and that double Grab was even more useful than I expected. That said, I won't always roll such good block dice, so I'm keen to Block them up ASAP, but I almost feel like I'm doping by taking this undead side.

Anyway, back to the game, rolled a normal on a Ghoul (took block) and bought a fourth with my 70k winnings. Due to play WEs (2MNGs, inc 1 Wardancer) next week.

So, nothing much has changed, but I'm thinking block/MB on mummies, MB/Tackle on wights and a mixed bag on ghouls as above. I'm inclined to leave zombies vanilla for now, but a double will likely to to Guard for utility.

Digger, what's a Tar Baby, and why does it have Pro?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:28 pm

"Tar Baby" is a piece of American mythology: Br'er Rabbit tries to fight the tar baby, but he just gets stuck in the tar. A tar baby in politics is a straw-man argument that's so vicious you can't ignore it but is so stupid it makes you look bad if you acknowledge it. Why he has Pro and not Fend or Dauntless, you'll have to ask Digger.

Here ya go.
Skeleton x2: DP/(Wrestle or cut) for both. Guard or +ST if possible on first skill, which changes track to Block/Fend. On second skill, nothing special: Wrestle or cut, regardless of roll. 3rd skill is auto-cut; he can't possibly pay for himself.
Zombie x4: Block/Frenzy for the first one, Block/Fend for the rest. Guard or +ST if possible.
Ghoul x4: Block/SS or SH, or Wrestle/Tackle. Mighty Blow, +MA, +AG, or +ST if possible. Lucky Ghouls with 3x normal skill should be Block/SS/Fend, just to see if it will keep them alive.
Wight x2: Guard, MB, Tackle, PO or SF. Dodge, +AG, or +ST if possible.
Mummy x2: Block, Guard, MB, SF, BT. +ST if possible.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:07 pm

mattgslater wrote:"Tar Baby" is a piece of American mythology: Br'er Rabbit tries to fight the tar baby, but he just gets stuck in the tar....

Someone did an analysis of what was most likely to bring an opposing piece down, and Wrestle + Pro was superior in almost every case.... However, I have no problem with Fend....

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