Pond Scum (a system for Slann)

[Ullis]

I'm beginning to appreciate the slann blitzers myself. Jump Up and Diving Catch have synergy when there's more than one or two on the pitch and the one point of move over the linos is a big deal, especially when coupled with Jump Up. They also have excellent skill access.

[Smeborg]

I'm beginning to appreciate the slann blitzers myself. Jump Up and Diving Catch have synergy when there's more than one or two on the pitch and the one point of move over the linos is a big deal, especially when coupled with Jump Up. They also have excellent skill access.

Thanks, Ullis - I quite like the Blitzers myself, they are splendid in isolation, and I have played quite a bit with them. I like the Jump Up and MA7 too, and of course on the right occasion, Diving Tackle can be a game winner.

What I have found by trial and error in short experiments is that the team appears to work better without them. This would appear definitely to be the case in tourneys (I have yet to see a tournament team with Blitzers). So I want to try an extended league without Blitzers.

When I take Bitzers I do OK, but tend to encounter frustrating problems, beyond the obvious TV bloat. The team becomes reliant on the Blitzers, and is weakened when they go into the dugout (not difficult to achieve). They hog the marginal SPPs, preventing the Linefrogs from developing. They die or get crippled, causing money and development problems. Perhaps most frustrating of all, they seem always to be in skill deficit. They start without Block, so they have to be given Block or Wrestle. They need Dodge to be able to exploit the mobility that comes with Jump Up. If you give them Guard (I don't), they are the most expensive Blitzer/Guarders in the game (150,000 for Block+Guard), and Guard implies that much of the time you will not use their excellent mobility. If you want to exploit their Diving Tackle, you really need Tackle plus S-Firm or S-Step (ideally combined with Block+Dodge too). Too few skills chasing too many development paths, I guess. Whereas in contrast, the unassuming Linefrogs are excellent at one skill, and outstanding at two - and they are relatively cheap, so I don't mind throwing them into the fray, even when odds are poor. I like having well spread skills on this team, combined with a deep bench, I think it suits them.

Another perspective is that the Blitzers (and the Krox) add little to the primary strength of the Slann, which is ball-hunting. What they do add (or can add with the right skills given to them) comes at a high price (which my playing experience is starting to suggest may be too high). Thus it is a good subject for playtesting. Assuming my league run goes ahead as planned, I'll report back on the results.

[Edit: Yet another perspective is that a Blitzer costs the same as a Linefrog + RR, in a team that needs a lot of RRs. The tournament perspective is that a Linefrog + RR is better than a Blitzer. Worth testing in a league, methinks.]

All the best.

[Hitonagashi]

I agree that Blitzers aren't good in tournaments, and I think this is again down to the MM/league styles of play.

At 120k the Blitzer is a rip-off. With 4 normals at 160k, he can suddenly have (for example), Block, Dodge, Sidestep, Diving Tackle, Jump Up, Tackle, Leap. For example, a Dark Elf Blitzer (who goes a similar path) by that point is 220k, which pretty much exactly pays off his +AG (not essential on a marker anyway). By 4 normals, he can also have Block/MB/Tackle/PO/DT/JU/Leap. Again, this combination on a killer is seriously nasty, as the DT will keep people tied to him, and I would again say that this player is a steal at 160k. He's no clawbombing beastman, but it's certainly not bad value.

Now, do the same with the catcher...what useful skills can they stack? Blodge, sure, Sure Hands, maybe, then what? As Sme said, your linefrogs are better at blitzing, and you really don't need 4 ball retrievers in a tournament team!

I would gamble that if you wanted to develop a FUMBBL major team (usually, 50ish games to build the team, 1.9-2.3k endpoint), you want to be very blitzer heavy. If you want the team for a 3-10 game series, you want to be catcher heavy.

[Smeborg]

At 120k the Blitzer is a rip-off. With 4 normals at 160k, he can suddenly have (for example), Block, Dodge, Sidestep, Diving Tackle, Jump Up, Tackle, Leap. For example, a Dark Elf Blitzer (who goes a similar path) by that point is 220k, which pretty much exactly pays off his +AG (not essential on a marker anyway). By 4 normals, he can also have Block/MB/Tackle/PO/DT/JU/Leap. Again, this combination on a killer is seriously nasty, as the DT will keep people tied to him, and I would again say that this player is a steal at 160k. He's no clawbombing beastman, but it's certainly not bad value.

I think the pricing for Slann Blitzers is 110,000 for rookies, 190,000 at 4 skills. In my experience, however, they don't often get to 4 skills. For me they are not so much a rip-off as expensive in relation to other players on the team, lacking in basic skills, and with more starting skills than they can easily use in practice.

Now, do the same with the catcher...what useful skills can they stack? Blodge, sure, Sure Hands, maybe, then what? As Sme said, your linefrogs are better at blitzing, and you really don't need 4 ball retrievers in a tournament team!

My normal system for the Catchers is: Dodge, Block, S-Step, Fend, S-Hands, Pro (although I have never got to 6 skills). One may get S-Hands earlier, especially if there are no stat increases. On doubles: Guard. All stat increases are outstanding on them (+MA, +ST, +AG). A Catcher with +1AG or even just +1MA makes a fine Thrower. Other normal skill choices for them would be Catch and KoR (I don't follow the latter system, but no doubt it works). So with at least 8 good normal skill choices, a great doubles choice and all stat increases likely to be taken, I don't perceive a shortage of good skills for the Catchers. With ST2 and AV7, they also have a relatively high turnover, and do not often get to 5th and 6th skills in my experience.

All the best.

[Hitonagashi]

And that's why I shouldn't try and add up at 11pm! Good catch...

Still, I think the point stands.

I also think that the difference in our points of view was made very clear with your post. I don't look at a player as "hard to get to point x", I say, "I want team x, and now I need to work out a sequence that can get me there".

That's not necessarily cherrypicking, but sometimes, I've certainly won 1-0 when I could have won 4-0 (weak opposition) in order to get the skills onto the correct players for the build I am designing towards, or deliberately won 2-1 instead of 2-0 in order to not risk the fragile player getting damaged. I very rarely go as far as to take a draw instead of a win, and I certainly wouldn't take a loss to preserve a player...but, when I'm playing FUMBBL, the match is only ever a part of my long term objective for the team. It's got so bad that I have serious difficulties 'just playing' with a one off team!

I also think this viewpoint is why coaches such as myself go with a blitzer + no catcher build. If the catchers are there, you pay the TV for a catcher over a linefrog, and if you don't *use* that TV to score, then you've wasted the TV. If you start with the blitzers, skill them up and *then* add the catchers, catchers aren't exactly tricky to skill later. It means that in the short term, your team is significantly weaker (rookie blitzer based team << rookie catcher based team), but in the long term, I believe it to be a more well rounded resulting squad.

When I'm designing a team, I think in terms of where ideally the 20k for a normal skill should be assigned. I would say that a blodging blitzer is better for the TV cost than a blodging catcher. It's a heck of a lot easier to get a catcher to blodge, but that doesn't factor into my analysis when I'm designing a team for a major.

Hope that's an interesting glimpse of the 'perpetual' mindset!

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Hitogonashi, I appreciate that the development mindset is often very different to that in the short tabletop environments in which I play. But were I to play Slann in a perpetual environment, I nevertheless think I would fancy my chances playing without Blitzers and without Krox (especially in TVMM). The roster is quite resilient (maximum 80,000 to replace a player, much Fend), has more than enough Guard (14 players taking Guard as first doubles), lacks a killer build, to be sure (but can foul perfectly well if that is important). The focus of development when you have the luxury of deciding where to give SPPs simply shifts from the Blitzers to the Linefrogs. Development is very rounded - once the Catchers average 4 skills each, and the Linefrogs 2 each, TV would be around 200+. And the Linefrogs who get stat increases (+AG or +ST) are very good value (Linefrog with +AG is the same as the DE Renegade with VLL and Leap, but cheaper). Maybe I will try this one day.

All the best.

[Ullis]

I also think this viewpoint is why coaches such as myself go with a blitzer + no catcher build. If the catchers are there, you pay the TV for a catcher over a linefrog, and if you don't *use* that TV to score, then you've wasted the TV.

Even one catcher makes a really big difference to the early slann offence and one catcher is a definite asset on defence as well. I think a slann team with at least one catcher will have an easier time of getting spp's on blitzers and linos than one without.

I always pick up with a catcher and then hand off (or pass disappointingly often) on offence to a blitzer or lino. But if things really go down the drain, then having a catcher helps a lot.

[Hitonagashi]

Hmm, this is a bit of a digression Ullis, but to me, I operate a "force myself" philosophy.

On a Lizardman team, if I want to try a quirky build, I start with that skill ahead of block. On FUMBBL recently, I was experimenting with a 6x stand firm as first skill. There's no way Stand Firm is a better skill than Block for them (though it was surprisingly close), but if you have one saurus with block, then he is by default your blitzer, as he is the most reliable, so he tends to gather more SPPs. If nobody has block, then no blitzer is reliable, which means that while your overall performance is lower, your SPP's get shared out more evenly.

To me, the same logic applies with Slann catchers. If you are being properly pressed, you will need to use that wonderful 2+ bounce, it's a get out of jail free card. Same as a +AG skink, the catcher can rescue almost any situation...and it's *way* too easy to fall into making a cursory attempt to score with a blitzer, then falling back on Backup Plan Bounce. By not taking the catcher, you force yourself to have to score without bouncing like a nutter, which means that even if you score less touchdowns, you *will* skill the blitzers.

Sme, I think it's a completely different game style with blitzers instead of catchers . To me, a blitzer build relies on space denial and forcing the opponent to make a mistake, almost like a stymie roll! If you are making the leaps, things are going wrong, because it's the threat of the leap that is the real issue.

[Overhamsteren]

What does chosen MVP mean, you can choose anyone or do the coaches agree about which player deserves it most? If you can just put it anywhere I would think that it suits blitzers and kroxigors perfectly although it is nifty on linefrogs as well of course.

Anyway I think your plan is pretty good although it is a bit sad that half the team is out by default.

Will be interesting to see if you will ever get enough developed linefrogs to have both sackers and designated linemen, I would think they die/retire fast enough that you should just focus on spamming sackers.

[Smeborg]

What does chosen MVP mean, you can choose anyone or do the coaches agree about which player deserves it most? If you can just put it anywhere I would think that it suits blitzers and kroxigors perfectly although it is nifty on linefrogs as well of course.

Anyway I think your plan is pretty good although it is a bit sad that half the team is out by default.

Will be interesting to see if you will ever get enough developed linefrogs to have both sackers and designated linemen, I would think they die/retire fast enough that you should just focus on spamming sackers.

Chosen MVP meansz you can give it ot anybody.

Linefrogs will be developed as sackers first, Linos only come once 4 sackers are under development. The 4 sackers stay of the LoS on defense, thus the least developed Linefrogs go on the LoS.

[Overhamsteren]

Yeah just meant when you got 4 sackers and the 5th lino levels up I would maybe just take another sacker with the thought that I will be back to 4 sackers soon enough given their hazardous occupation.

[Smeborg]

Yeah just meant when you got 4 sackers and the 5th lino levels up I would maybe just take another sacker with the thought that I will be back to 4 sackers soon enough given their hazardous occupation.

Well, actually there are no non-sacker builds at one skill (Wrestle) unless the roll is a doubles (Guard). Provided there are 4 sackers at 2 skills (including the Kicker), then I would start giving 5th and subsequent Linefrogs Fend as second skill. So not a big difference in development, just a higher prioritisation for Fend for the Linos. But I don't expect many proper Linos in (say) 20 games.

[nick_nameless]

I have about 30 games under my belt with Slann, all tabletop. This does not make me an expert, but I think it gives me a little room to talk.

A few things I have found:
- You CAN have too much wrestle. How much you have and where you put it can be a matter of taste, but I felt that a ratio of 2 block to 1 wrestle works pretty well. Maybe 5 block to three wrestle, when you get that far. And I am talking about Blitzers and Linefrogs here.
- +AG on Linefrogs and Blitzers make this team sing. You only need one or 2, and what a difference that makes. +st is nice, but it does not go as far and is not as necessary as with other teams.
- I advise against thinking of Slann as a 'fast team'. They are comparatively slow when looking at the fast teams. I prefer to think of them as a 'mobile' team. As such I look for skills to enhance my mobility and detract from my opponents.
- Slann bitzers with 2 skills are awesome. 3 with Block+ and one with Wrestle+. You can make 4 unique players here, and I highly recommend that you try and build that into your team strategy. The Blitzers feed into the +/- mobility strategy with Diving Tackle taking away from your opponent and Jump Up helping you. I want players like::
Block Mightyblow Tackle Piling On
Block Dodge Standfirm Guard
Block Tackle Shadowing Sidestep
Wrestle Tackle Stripball Dodge
- Catchers come and go. They are great out of the box, and develop easily. Although I have enjoyed having KOR on a player, I have lamented having it on two. Having a Block, Dodge, Dirty Player, Sneaky Git catcher will get your opponent's attention.
- I have often wished for a Krox, but never want to spend the TV. When my S4 LineFrog dies I will consider a Krox as a replacement.
- Playing the TV game with Slann is tough because they get *ahem* bloated quickly. Playing in a league as opposed to a resurrection tournament, I think all linefrogs and catchers will catch up with you quickly. Personnally if I were skipping blitzers to start I would at least consider giving my opponent a Krox to chew on.

[Hitonagashi]

Having a Block, Dodge, Dirty Player, Sneaky Git catcher will get your opponent's attention.

Nice general post, but do you often play against teams with multiple legendary players?

That's a *lot* of TV to waste on a dedicated fouler compared to the usual 60k (zombie +dp) considering the odds of him getting sent off!

[Smeborg]

I had an interesting experience in a tourney last weekend with Slann, applying the same system I have proposed in this thread (no Blitzers, no Krox). I have posted the details in the tournament sub-forum:

http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 39#p653339

All the best.