Undead advice wanted! [NTBB league]

[Jimmy Fantastic]

MB is awesome. Guard is not so essential now, but also awesome.

[MKL]

I would refrain from giving the MVP to the Ghoul. They are already hogging most of the spp, and they are the most-killable players of the team.
Let the ghouls care for themselves, and try developing the Wights. It takes some time, but looks like you got some headstart on your opponents. And a mobile MB-Tackle is gold.

[spubbbba]

Hi Shteve0,
Congrats on your 4th win. You're certainly making a case for mummies not needing G.

Remember that chose MVP’s make a massive difference. Black Orcs, Golems, Saurus and Nurgle Warriors are all notoriously difficult to skill up normally and they have general plus strength access.

Grab does help the mummy somewhat maximise it’s blocking chances but they are also the slowest and least agile of the players listed so very unlikely to get any TD’s.

So I’d be wary of drawing too many conclusions compared to a league with normal random MVP since losing MB really stunts their spp generating ability.

[mattgslater]

All positioning skills are like this. Individually, they're kind of fun, sometimes annoying. En masse, they rewrite the game. A non-loner 3d skilled block is basically a safe action; I have in fact rolled sextuple skulls... once in 15 years. Statistically, I'm due for another one sometime around the year 2439, give or take. So, since you can safely maneuver a player into push position, you really change the definition of movement, by setting up constant chains to block players in squares you'd never be able to blitz into. One Grab doesn't do that. But two or three of them, and some Blodgestep and Fend, that's a different matter. Hard to build into that without sacrificing power skills, but easy to game out once you start making it happen.

Fend should be #2 for all your Zombies, unless they take Frenzy. Either way, it's for synergy. If Grab can let you chain into a Fend Zombie, you can keep the victim on the blocking player, without having to follow, and push the Fend guy off the target, in case he would block but the first defender has Guard, or something.

I still think you should take Frenzy before Tackle. Almost as good as Tackle for hitting Dodge players, good for combo with Grab/Guard guys, useful against non-Dodge teams. They combo well....

[plasmoid]

Hi Spubbbba,
duly noted.
However, I've got a lot of coaches stating that this looks overpowered, and quite few stating that it is fine.
Ideally I could wait for tons of feedback, but it is the nature of the beast that I will have to make decisions based on less than ample data - and I'm inclined to err on the side of caution.
Not to mention that for house rules perception is important, because of it looks unbalanced then nobody will use the rules.

Still, 2013 is some time off, and I'm looking at whatever feedback I have at that time.
Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

It won't take too long to become apparent one way or the other, Martin. Exercise a little restraint.

[MKL]

And half of the idea was to make Undeads stronger on the long run. G access surely fit the bill.

[plasmoid]

@Mattgslater -
I'll excersize a little restraint.
But sometimes it's so close that it's very hard to call.
And if it's that hard to call, then the nerf wasn't nerfy enough.

So far, all I'll be deciding is which version makes NTBB2013, and hence gets playtested in pbem league play. But admittedly, whatever gets tested is a step closer to getting approved.

[Shteve0]

Guard is awesome. MB is hit/miss.

MB is awesome. Guard is not so essential now, but also awesome.

MB is simultaneously both hit and miss AND awesome, I agree with you both. Guard is awesome, but I'm playing in an elf-heavy environment, where I figure I'll be at a ST advantage far more. And yet... Grab with Guard on ST5 players is just immense!

Congrats on your 4th win. You're certainly making a case for mummies not needing G.

Interesting take, and I'm not sure I actually agree. As others have pointed out, it's too early to draw a conclusion on the G access (we might as well just call it Block access, since there's little else of interest in there for a mummy) and it boosts them mid-long term, which is the point. Now, if you'd said I was making a case for them not needing starting Grab, then perhaps.... I mean, it just makes them so dependable (I look for a "push or better" more often than not).

Anyway, just wanted to ask: Didn't your league raise the Bank cap above 100k?

I don't know, actually - perhaps last season, before I signed up? This year is definitely 100k.

I would refrain from giving the MVP to the Ghoul. They are already hogging most of the spp, and they are the most-killable players of the team.

Yeah, I think you might be right on this one. Hopefully another option will crop up next game.

All positioning skills are like this. Individually, they're kind of fun, sometimes annoying. En masse, they rewrite the game.

This!

[plasmoid]

Hi Shteve0,
what I'm worried about is that if Grab is as awesome as you say, then Grab+Block on first skill may well be too much. And 1 skill is hardly mid-late development..

Now, IMO, MB+Guard would still be better than Grab+Block. But I'm not the one facing or coaching these guys ATM. Personally, I don't fear getting pushed around as much as being dominated with guard or losing players to MB - but I suppose I'm either awesome or clueless in that regard

[mattgslater]

I think it's only at 2 skills that your Mummies really get good.

[Shteve0]

Lol, yes, ok, I'm possibly a little guilty of hyperbole. Grab is 'good' or 'very good', perhaps.

The real top tier power skills are Block, Mighty Blow, Guard, Dodge, Claw. GS access gives you three of those on a ST5 player without doubles. Am I missing anything from that list? Grab, for me, is certainly in the second rung, where it becomes a real sense of "it depends what player". Horns is in there. Strip Ball. Tackle. Wrestle. Stand Firm and Side Step, too.

My point about the short vs long term comparison is that I'm not convinced that a player that helps you to win as many games but takes longer to skill up is a short term nerf at all. A player with MB will skill up faster, yes - but a player with Grab still helps you win games initially, you just use them a little differently.

If a change is necessary at all (and given what you're doing in NTBB the Undead are as good a target as any, let's be fair), I'm suggesting that a straightforward 0-2 Mummy 3 5 1 9 Regeneration GS/AP is probably all that you need.

[plasmoid]

Hi Shteve0,
I've been thinking about that too. But it's a fairly rough solution. I'd expect serious gnashing of teeth. And as you know, this being a set of house rules makes me wary of needlessly p*ssing of people.

A player with MB will skill up faster, yes - but a player with Grab still helps you win games initially, you just use them a little differently.

Slowed down development is the smaller part of the nerf.
The main nerf is that, OK, Grab still helps you win games. Any and all skills (ought to) do that. But it was my thinking/intent that Grab would help to a lesser extent than MB does initially.
In CRP many teams start with 11 players and no apoth. Meaning that in the early stages 2 dudes with MB and no loner can win you the game fairly quickly - or through more extended blocking. And, IMO, easier than Grab will.
But I'll be listening to whatever comes in.
Looks like this one is going to be hard to settle.

Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

Game 1-2, damage is totally important. After that, the other guy has an Apothecary and is going to game to restrict your Mummies, limiting their blocks and the value of the targets. Teams get tougher quickly, as the money comes in over the first 5-10 games. Assuming 0.5 FAME, a 40-20-40 win rate for an average coach, and no situational gaming on the general policy of re-rolling 1-3 on Winnings (like when you roll a 2, and it's just enough), your winnings per match will average 49k. Some teams will hover around 11 guys because of lost players or deliberate coaching decisions, but others will hit twelve men; either way, most will get an Apothecary after 1-2 games.

Tactically, Grab is at least as good as Mighty Blow. In terms of early development, Mighty Blow is a whole lot better. In terms of long-term potential, MB has a smaller but still clear advantage... one that pales in comparison to G access.

Personally, I LUV it. I don't think it's broken; it's fun, it helps them over the long haul better than it hurts them in the short term, and it's still a little bit scary to play against. It also challenges teams to design around it. I'm betting that Wrenzy Ghoul becomes a staple, and that F-POMB Wights will be even scarier than you're used to. It will also make Stand Firm better, and to a lesser extent Fend.

Here's how I'd build Mummies: Guard first, as they're my only normal-skill Guards and aren't loners. Then Block at 16 SPP, Mighty Blow at 31, Multiple Block at 51, Stand Firm at 76, and Break Tackle at 176. I'd deviate only for +ST, which would prioritize Multiple Block over Mighty Blow. Multiple Block is normally not that good a skill. But with all the chain potential you have, it's insane. Interior defenses have to set up super-duper deep, for fear that you'll find a way to chain your Mummy into their third row and Multiple Grab their defense to irrelevance. And then when they set up way back deep, you have a ton of time to design a cage that can't be attacked without putting Multiple Zones on your Multiple Killing Machine.

[spubbbba]

I still see Grab as one of those skills that is nice to start with but pretty low down the skill choice list. It’s similar to things like catch, nerves of steel and safe throw.

If you gave the mummy no skills aside from regen and left G access then it would be 4th choice at best (after block, guard and MB) for them, assuming you rolled no doubles or stats and would be competing with Frenzy, SF, BT and possibly tackle.

Without MB a mummy isn’t all that scary, sure he gets 2D blocks vs almost everyone but his progression can be painfully slow. Anyone who’s played Nurgle, Lizardmen or Orcs will know how hard it can be to skill up a ST4 low AG player. I’ve had Nurgle Warriors that took 20+ games to get to 6 spp’s and it’s not all that hard to score with them.