Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[Juriel]

I don't think you should aim for a DP lineman. That's an 80k player who's going to get himself evicted, eh.

Tackle isn't necessarily needed for blitzing, but you need it to control the dodgy teams. Otherwise all you're getting is that one blitz per turn... While Elves beat up your ST3 guys.

I think Elves and Orc/Chaos are a lot of trouble for Khorne. Good thing no-one plays those teams...

[Anglakhel]

I agree.

I think developed Elves with Side Step will be very difficult for the Khorne roster.

I think Orcs/Chaos and even Dwarfs will be very dangerous. While Khorne has a number of good Blitzers they have no initial Block. After Block you need to start looking at Guard and Mighty Blow. Some Stand Firm to protect your own Frenziers from getting Surfed will be essential.

With just ST3 almost everywhere, I would imagine TV efficient Dwarfs would be a nightmare with way more Guard and Mighty Blow than the Khorne roster could muster. And Blodging up the Bloodletters won't help vs those pesky Dwarfs. On top of that, the Dwarfs are much more likely to have room to invest in Stand Firm as well before the Khorne roster can start adding it to key Positionals.

[Shteve0]

Look, I'm not going to bang on about it, but we're two pages in and no-one's mentioned taking side step yet. I know it's been raised as a problem skill to play against, but since it functions both as a defensive fix to counter-surfing and as a reactive alternative to Grab, I'd say Guard has a doubles rival, and it certainly isn't dodge.

[Corvidius]

Look, I'm not going to bang on about it, but we're two pages in and no-one's mentioned taking side step yet. I know it's been raised as a problem skill to play against, but since it functions both as a defensive fix to counter-surfing and as a reactive alternative to Grab, I'd say Guard has a doubles rival, and it certainly isn't dodge.

Agreed. Definitely an option.

[mattgslater]

Side Step would be a great skill for this team, but nobody can take it. You have no A access with Frenzy (and the A access you can take has S too, and AV7, and has to Blodge/Guard up), and you can't spare doubles on a ST3 team with so little Guard. Second doubles, maybe.

[Smeborg]

Side Step would be a great skill for this team, but nobody can take it. You have no A access with Frenzy (and the A access you can take has S too, and AV7, and has to Blodge/Guard up), and you can't spare doubles on a ST3 team with so little Guard. Second doubles, maybe.

I'm inclined to agree with Matt. In any case, I suspect that S-Firm would on the whole be better, since it is more reliable for preventing "counter-surfing" manoeuvres.

[Smeborg]

I have done a little crude development modelling, and have discovered that it takes ages for the team to get Guard. This is because in my thinking, Guard was taken on the Heralds after Block, and by the Bloodletters after Block/Dodge. I am now thinking that maybe the Bloodletters ought to take Guard as first skill. I know that sounds a bit crazy (AV7, no Block and all that), but the Bloodletters are the "Mr. Reliables" of the side, only they can choose not to follow up. And they can blitz reliably (Horns/Jugs) to reposition their Guard in case of need.

Guard is perhaps the most important skill for this team, up with Block. If I were to change the suggested development paths as follows:

Heralds: Block, Guard (consider Dodge on doubles only as 3rd or subsequent skill)
Bloodletters: Guard, Block, Dodge, Grab (ignore doubles, they cook with GAS)
Fighters: Block (Guard on doubles)

then I think the team might be better placed (a) to handle the bash opponents, and (b) to maximise the number of surfs (which I feel is the better way to play the numbers game). Guard as first skill on the Bloodletters might also work for the "slayer" version of the team (i.e. with a Bloodthirster on the team, and both he and the Heralds being developed as conventional slayers, without Guard).

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I am liking the many development conundrums this team brings:

- Whether to take a Bloodthirster.
- Whether (and on whom) to take Wrestle.
- Whether and when to take Tackle.
- When to take Guard.
- Who to develop as the primary ball carrier, and how.

Cunning stuff, all that.

[Juriel]

Yeah, with the low base stats, I really don't think you can go the regular 'first Block, then other skills' route. That just makes you full of ST3 still. Some players (Bloodletters most likely) will need to take on the support mantle right away and give Guard to others.

[Hitonagashi]

I disagree on the need for Guard first skill.

This team will suffer if it goes men down, and suffer hard, as the lack of men means that you can get less and less blocks off.

Theoretically, guard sounds nice, because it allows you to assist...but ahead of survival skills on your frail pieces? A Bloodletter is as fragile as a skaven linerat! Once he's got blodge, he's *slightly* more durable, but going for guard first? Any good bash team will obliterate you.

[Smeborg]

I disagree on the need for Guard first skill.

This team will suffer if it goes men down, and suffer hard, as the lack of men means that you can get less and less blocks off.

Theoretically, guard sounds nice, because it allows you to assist...but ahead of survival skills on your frail pieces? A Bloodletter is as fragile as a skaven linerat! Once he's got blodge, he's *slightly* more durable, but going for guard first? Any good bash team will obliterate you.

I am open-minded, these ideas have come to me because I have started playing the team in a league and need to get my development strategy sorted fast! Yes, a Bloodletter will go into the dugout as easily as a Linerat, but at least he has Regen. That's quite a big difference.

I am wondering about Dodge on the Bloodletters as first or second skill (i.e. Dodge/Guard or Guard/Dodge). Mobile Guard would be very handy. I play in a league where I am unlikely to play more than (say) 20 games, thus waiting until 3rd slot for an important skill is not normally a sound policy.

This team does not play in the same style as others, believe it or not it poses problems for bash teams, who will struggle to keep the ball safe, regardless of whether they are winning the numbers game. The team will continue to threaten the ball even when 1 or 2 players down (3 or 4 down and it starts to struggle of course). I don't see the Khorne team getting obliterated more easily than many other teams. One place I do see them struggling, however, is on the LoS on offense - they feel like the weakest of all teams that I have played in this regard, at least with a starting roster. In my first game IIRC I only made 2 blocks on the LoS both times that I received (had I taken a 4th Bloodletter, I might have managed a 3rd block). And that was against rookie High Elves. A rookie Fighter on the LoS is staring at a push followed by an uphill block. Guard seems the best remedy for this, as well as enabling the team to "get more blocks off" in open play (as you eloquently put it).

There's only one way to find out! All the best.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

The list I would take would be 10 pit fighters, Bloodthirster, 3 Re-rolls.
Would be interesting and maybe fun with 11 frenzied guys.
The Bloodletters are just too much of a fluff disaster to include.

[mattgslater]

I'm with you on the silliness of the "Bloodletters", Jimmy. They certainly don't seem very Bloodletter-y to me. But I can't imagine a Khorne roster without something called a Bloodletter....

I'd have designed them on an CW template, trading AV for Horns, and dropping M access (GS/AP). Would definitely have made the roster more playable. Heck, they could be AG2 if they were MA6: that would weaken the team for sure, but they'd be fun. If you want them to stay weak, you could keep the Regenerate business and then make them pay 20k for it (pure cruelty).

I totally fail to understand the appeal of P access except as a justification for that ridiculous TRR costing. There is literally one P skill that one player on this team will take, and it will have only one effect, saving the penalty of the overpriced re-rolls. TRRs for this team should be no more than 60k. Really, with 60k linos, TRRs should be 50k, except for the "chaotic" fluff.

[Smeborg]

There is literally one P skill that one player on this team will take, and it will have only one effect, saving the penalty of the overpriced re-rolls.

Matt - that's what I thought at first, too, but having played this team, and done a little playtesting on my own as well, I am now convinced that Khorne are a passing team. They are weak on the first turn on the LoS, and their caging play is also weak (cage corners with Frenzy and no Block, all you need to do is mark the corners and the cage dissolves by itself). They are a bit slow to create hand-off threats (the hand-off is often a square out of reach). They make up for all this with their extreme blitzing ability and ownership of the wide zones. As well as getting them out of trouble when needed (which seems to be a lot of the time!), it means they can easily push 2 or 3 Receivers into scoring position as early as turn 1. The best way to get the ball to them seems to be to hang back with the ball (out of range of the opponent, or well screened), followed by a pass (which may typically be on about turn 3). Players marking Receivers are easily cleared by blitzing.

Thus I expect to develop a genuine Thrower on any Khorne team, unless stat increases allow otherwise (e.g. +AG or perhaps +MA on a Bloodletter to create a proper Runner, with nothing similar on the Fighters).

The need to pass or hand-off and GFI to score on most offensive drives is also an argument in favour of the 3RR starting roster (although I still have a soft spot for the alternative with 2RR, Apoth, 4 Bloodletters). I also need to think about taking S-Hands as first skill on the first Fighter to skill up (it saves RR too), possibly deferring Leader to the 2nd fighter. KoR looks relatively important on the Thrower too, based on practical play. So there are plenty of tough choices to make in developing a Thrower who starts with no passing or ball handling skills.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I have a development plan (well, 2 actually):

PLAN A
------------
Starting roster: 2 Heralds, 3 Bloodletters, 6 Fighters, 3 RR (TV: 99)
Final roster: 2 Heralds, 4 Bloodletters, 8 Fighters, 3 RR, Apoth (TV: 124)
Heralds: Block, Guard, S-Firm, Tackle, M-Blow (doubles: Dodge)
Bloodletters: Dodge, Guard, Block, Grab, S-Firm (ignore doubles)
1st Fighter: Leader
2nd Fighter: S-Hands, Pass, Accurate, KoR, S-Throw (or similar)
Other Fighters: Block, D-Less, Pro, Tackle, Fend (doubles: Dodge)

PLAN B
------------
Starting roster: 2 Heralds, 4 Bloodletters, 5 Fighters, 2 RR, Apoth (TV: 99)
Final roster: Bloodthirster, 2 Heralds, 4 Bloodletters, 6 Fighters, 2 RR, Apoth (TV: 123)
Bloodthirster: M-Blow, P-On, S-Firm, B-Tackle, Guard (or similar)
Heralds: Block, M-Blow, P-On, Tackle, S-Firm (ignore early doubles, consider J-Up as a late skill)
Bloodletters: Guard, Block, Dodge, Grab, S-Firm (ignore doubles)
Ist Fighter: as in plan A
2nd Fighter: as in plan A
Other fighters: as in plan A (but doubles: Guard)

I will go with plan A for now, although I have a sneaking wish to try the mad but entertaining Plan B.

All the best.