Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

[adhansa]

Isn't all stunty teams hampered at high TV by bad statlines and the fact the no other A-skill than dodge affect the blocking game. Most skill-progression suggestions for stuntyplayers are recycle if you dont roll double/statincrease or something that direction. I think the only effective sollution is some skillchange that changes blocking, but still isn't worthwhile to choose before wreste or block for players with G-access. Something that lets stunty-teams at least armsrace a little with other teams a little when TV goes up, instead of thinking that most additional skills ar more or less TV-bloat. Perhapse some skill should get "Stunty players gain..." to make them worthwhile for stunty players.
And i still belive that Right Stuff cancels Tackle is one of the nessessary changes.

[macabeo]

Some more (hopefully constructive) comments:

Ogres
As stated above, I'm very happy with the ogre team, and feedback has been very good.
So I'm not looking for any further changes.
@Macabeo - I do see what you're getting at with the snots. But I prefer MA6 over Sure Feet because:
a) The player already has a lot of skills, and a prefer a less cluttered statline.
b) In 2nd ed. a snotling in the open was actually as fast as a human lineman (3+3 vs 4+2) - so now that that subtle difference is impossible to portray, I don't think that the identical "top speed" is too far fetched.

Fair enough, snots have a lot of skills as it is, I'll settle with MA6. Still not happy with Titchy cancelling Tackle, but I don't think we'll agree on this

+1 to fouling (Macabeo):
It is true that mobile teams will be better at positioning for this. On the other hand, these teams are also (IMO) more likely to be subjected to player removal - including fouling - so I think it evens out.

I think you got me wrong here, what I meant is that teams like elves can easily get a lot of assists when fouling, as opposed to teams like nurgle, so making it easier to lower the armor to get good enough odds of sending the other player out actually helps slow teams, not agile teams, which is the opposite of what you intend, right? Anyway, fixing fouling is tough so I'm ok with the change at the moment (just keep an eye on the effect of this change). My 2 cents for the future: +1 to injuries and the eye back (which would also combine quite nicely with the new SG, as getting sent out wouldn't be that bad).

2 trolls. lonerless. SG on all the weapons (free). Rerolls back to 60K.

Yes to lonerless trolls, huge no to SG weapons, sorry. I mean, the new SG is the only good option on a normal roll for a Bombardier and opens an option for the looney, giving them SG would take the fun away from developing them. My suggestion (the one that I made initially): SG on the 0-16 goblins only for the goblin team, either old or new version (I prefer old), and changing Secret Weapon so you don't have to deploy them when you have fewer than 11 players, and yes, rerolls back to 60k. You told me you were afraid this might be too good, but I honestly think that SG on the weapons is way stronger.

There are a few changes i would consider making, first off the Sneaky Git (SG) definately make this a 4+ roll can't be modified at all because this could be an easy way with bloodwiser babes to get your SW back on really easily with out bribing which has its own reward in a 2+ roll.

Actually, I'm starting to lean towards a straight 4+ for SG. Since a player (often the B&C) can be both sent off and KO'd at the same time, it makes sense that KO recovery and sent off recovery are actually 2 separate events with 2 different rolls and modifiers.

100% agree.

The only other thing I don't like is the change for Piling On (although I agree that for the sake of simplicity it is better for now to go with a relatively lesser change), the rest of the stuff is great, I'd keep it as it is

[Anglakhel]

I really like the new SG but really dislike the idea of adding it to all the Secret Weapons for free. It should be a skill they look forward to developing rather than an automatic boost.

Giving it for free creates the weird Bribe overlap. Making them earn it means they can get rewarded for taking it and Bribes.

I would say don't give it to SWs for free and still let Bloodweiser Babes affect the dice roll to recover.

[Shteve0]

Giving it for free creates the weird Bribe overlap. Making them earn it means they can get rewarded for taking it and Bribes.

I would say ... let Bloodweiser Babes affect the dice roll to recover.

What? So 2x babes gives you unlimited 2+ return rolls, and a bribe costs the same?

I think if you allow modified SG rolls, you cut - badly - into bribes.

[plasmoid]

Hi Macabeo, Anglakhel and Shteve0,

Macabeo:

I think you got me wrong here

I don't think I did actually. My view is that the change helps both sides. Yes, fast teams may be able to get assists in, but heavy teams are likely to be men up anyway, making it easier for them to get assists and harder for the squishy teams to spare the assists.
So far it's working out fine in playtest.

Macabeo & Anglakhel
Duly noted - you don't like SG for free.
Here's my problem: If 3 loner trolls are too weak and require a change, then I'm not sure that 2 lonerless ones is that much stronger. A little perhaps, but not a lot.
So I want to give them a further buff, but I don't want to invent new skills or change basic rules or skills. I want the changes to be confined to the roster. And I can't change the gobbo, as there are gobbos on many teams. So I'm forced to make a change to the unique gobbo players. I could tweak some or all of them - but it would certainly be the simplest to do the same thing to all of them.

Shteve0:

What? So 2x babes gives you unlimited 2+ return rolls, and a bribe costs the same?

Actually - that's how it is in NTBB2012!
But please note:
Bribes will let you return any sent-off player. Babes will only work on SG players.
Bribes let you stay on the pitch. Babes return you at the end of the drive.
Giving a player SG is an investment of SPPs and TV - and he didn't get something else.

So if 2 weapons have taken SG, then you can commit a total of 14TV to getting them back into action.
Or you could take (almost) 3 Bribes (for gobbos), and have the 2 skills.
I don't see one of those as clearly supirior.

Cheers
Martin

[Anglakhel]

3 Lonerless Trolls?

[mattwhile]

I like the SG on weapons idea, seems to fit the background. Sort of agree that 2 Lonerless Trolls isn't a big enough buff, especially when compared to 'Flings and Ogres.

[plasmoid]

I talked to Galak and Ian, and they each said that while they were fine with the Bank change, they would not agree to change SG to unmodified 4+ until somebody had actually tried it and got overly good results.

With that in mind, I'm inclined to go with 2 lonerless Trolls, 60k rerolls, and SG on the weapons. I quite like the symmetry in both halflings and gobbos getting a substantial induced advantage by TV-dumping by 10 points.

[MattDakka]

With that in mind, I'm inclined to go with 2 lonerless Trolls, 60k rerolls, and SG on the weapons. I quite like the symmetry in both halflings and gobbos getting a substantial induced advantage by TV-dumping by 10 points.

I had on mind the lonerless Troll-Treemen symmetry too when I suggested 2 lonerless Trolls, I think it's a good idea.

[plasmoid]

Right - further developments:
I've discussed the changes to the CRP+ list with Ian and Galak.
They were both OK with the combination of Bank and Petty Cash rule - so that is going ahead.
They were both opposed to changing the interaction with SG+BWBabes - at least until we hands on problems rather than just the speculation. However, a clarification will be added that - just like in the CRP - a player can be both sent off and injured/KO'd, and will have to recover from both before he can return to play.

As for the other teams, the feedback I'm getting is that the Undead need a knifing.
So either Grab is replaced with a crappier skill. Or G-access goes. I'm leaning towards the latter.

With Dwarfs and Amazons, I'm inclined to go with 2012 rosters.

As for gobbos, I leaning heavily towards: 2 lonerless trolls, rerolls back to 60K, and SG on the weapons for +10K each.
That way, with 3 weapons and 2 rerolls (or thereabouts) 2 Babes will be 5TV further away, which will make it a bit harder to TV-dump for the 2 Babes.

Cheers
Martin

[legowarrior]

So, what do you think of Khorne so far? It doesn't seem like any of the changes you are proposing would affect Khorne all that much, but I'm curious about the interaction between the new team and NTBB?

[plasmoid]

Hi Legowarrior,
I managed to get Khorne into pbem playtest tournament 2, so they'll definately be in NTBB2013 as an optional roster. I see no reason to do anything NTBB-specific with them right away. I think the roster looks interesting and fun, and the fluff issues I have with the team I'll deal with by changing the positional titles (Linemen, Khorne Beastmen, Furies, Bloodreaper(?))

Based on their performance in NTBBL and worldwide, they may get a buff for 2014. I've discussed some with Galak and Dode, but in the end the chnages would only fall back on me.

Cheers
Martin

[Lunchab1es]

As a goblin coach, I love the idea of 2 lonerless trolls, whereas 3 loner trolls is very "meh". If I wanted 3 big guys I'd play Pact. Also, it adds a bit of design consistency, where all of the tier 3 teams get Loner-free big guys to make up for their stunty "linemen".

[plasmoid]

Glad to hear it.
I'm actually considering going lonerless on the underworld troll also. Just considering.
Currently I've buffed them with 60K rerolls, and that doesn't do much.
Lonerless troll would mean that all the right stuff teams had lonerless BGs.
On the other hand, the troll on underworld doesn't have a mate, so perhaps he should stay a loner...

[MattDakka]

Glad to hear it.
I'm actually considering going lonerless on the underworld troll also. Just considering.
Currently I've buffed them with 60K rerolls, and that doesn't do much.
Lonerless troll would mean that all the right stuff teams had lonerless BGs.
On the other hand, the troll on underworld doesn't have a mate, so perhaps he should stay a loner...

I like the idea and I don't think that a lonerless underworld troll would make the team too strong.
Slann need some love too, blitzers and catchers should be reworked.
Blitzers are too expensive and catchers have the useless dump off, dodge would be better.