Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,

No you missunderstand. there are two leageus running side by side. both currently using NTTB1, one of them will use the new sneaky git, the other will use SW rolls. Niether will use your updated PO nerf because we have found that the original nerf was enough to stop it being so OP. The new nerf to claw and PO is just to far.

Awesome. Though you should be warned that SG mainly there to put back in some of the blood that was removed when the stack was nerfed. Could be bloody.
I've written extensively on why I didn't like the old fix, so I won't repeat here.

Then why not just allow Sneaky Git to work as you suggest for fouls?

Because I find it clunky to work for some send-offs, but not others.
And now that I need a gobbo buff anyway, it will do nicely.

Because at the moment its main use is just a version of SW rolls

There aren't many skillable SWs in the game. As far as I can tell it's main use will be fouling.
I think it will be used exactly as intended as I like both effects just fine.

And I'm still not too worried by that Nightmare scenario of the SG Roller with 2 BWBs. Sounds a lot like a DR with a Bribe (on a high AV team that prefers looong grinds). Except for the doubles skill required. If you don't take block you deserve the pat on the back, IMO.

@Harroguk:
If he fouls with impunity all game then you're playing it wrong . You know he gets sent off on doubles, right? Heck, he doesn't even have DP.
I presented Galak and Ian with the suggestion to cut interaction with BWB, and they said they wanted to see the current rule play out before considering changing it. I'm very fine with that. Like you I have no problem imagining the 2 nice girls helping the ref blow his whistle..

Oh, but hey, being a team that benifits from fouling may comfort him now that his mummies will lose G!

The rule designed to benefit the stunties/ag teams falls apart a little bit when the Bash are playing it too.

Actually, that was never the intent. The intent was to put back in some of the blood that nerfing the stack took out. But put it back in in a more democratically available way. I think Garion has been a bit of a spokesperson for that, but I may be wrong.

@Garion - I take no offense. And I appriciate the feedback.
I'm just fairly far into the process by now, gathering feedback from games, so I'm less and less likely to make a sweeping change. Even more so ones harking back to LRB4, when the basis of "CRP+" is the CRP.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

numbered your points to make it clear

No you missunderstand. there are two leageus running side by side. both currently using NTTB1, one of them will use the new sneaky git, the other will use SW rolls. Niether will use your updated PO nerf because we have found that the original nerf was enough to stop it being so OP. The new nerf to claw and PO is just to far.

1. Awesome. Though you should be warned that SG mainly there to put back in some of the blood that was removed when the stack was nerfed. Could be bloody.
I've written extensively on why I didn't like the old fix, so I won't repeat here.

Because at the moment its main use is just a version of SW rolls

2.There aren't many skillable SWs in the game. As far as I can tell it's main use will be fouling.
I think it will be used exactly as intended as I like both effects just fine.

3. And I'm still not too worried by that Nightmare scenario of the SG Roller with 2 BWBs. Sounds a lot like a DR with a Bribe (on a high AV team that prefers looong grinds). Except for the doubles skill required. If you don't take block you deserve the pat on the back, IMO.

1. I have never been bothered by blood in the game (I just hate the way it all comes from one place in CRP, in LRB4 every team could dish it out, with Chaos still being the best if they are extremely lucky with skill rolls and avoid ageing. and I also hate that in CRP you are safer on the floor than standing up, that is one of the biggest problems out there), so thats fine no issue about more blood, though I really don't think SG will have much impact tbh. Fouling does a load of damage in CRP because of how unlikely you are to be sent off anyway, so you can foul most turns once you get a man advantage and fouling sucks in CRP so yeah the +1 to av helps and that is a must if CRP was ever to be updated. I just can't see much use out of SG really other than SWs and as I said Sw rolls did this better anyway.

2. I don't understand what you mean here, all SW players are skillable. Deathroller, chainsaw, B&C and bombadier all benefit greatly from skills, possibly the deathroller least so because of its cost? Also block on a double on deathroller already seems a waste to me. I'd take Diving Tackle in stupid CRP where death rollers are now allow to go prone. I would take Sneaky Git with that rule change, and abuse the heck out of inducements, and believe me people would hate to play that team.

3. Brings me to another point I meant to make before but forgot. 2 babes plus SG is better than a bribe now. Alot better, because once sent off that is it with bribes, but SG allows you to attempt to bring them back every drive. This will detract from bribes imo.

I just think this is too open to abuse if you allow babes to help. But if you don't allow them to help it makes the already pretty clunky rule even clunkier.

[plasmoid]

Brief replies:
1. As stated, it's getting used for straight fouling in the Leagues.
2. I meant the many SW stars.
3. But bribes can be used on any player, not just the ones that have committed a (doubles) skill to it. And it leaves you in the drive, rather than in the reserves box. Could you that man advantage.

[fanglord13]

I have to agree with garion on point 3. Even though a bribe can be used on any player, it is a one off attempt and costs either 50k or 100k to induce. SG costs 20k or 30k rostered and under the ammended rule the player could test at the end of every drive.

SG should be a straight, one-off 4+ roll after being ejected for either fouling or SW use. Roll once for a SW sent off for a foul.

Simple and effective?

[Shteve0]

Me too. And honestly, I don't see a logical link for babes affecting the outcome. They don't currently distract the ref, or how would that affect the KO result?

[Necro10c]

Hi all,

First of all, thank you Martin and everybody else for using that much time and effort on our common hobby. I must say that at first I was horrified by changing the rules, as for me the balancing of the teams are paramount in Blood Bowl, and I was afraid that NTBB just was a single guys effort to alter the rules to his liking. Now that I have been checking it out on the web, reasd the discussions and heard the interview at 3DieBlock I must say that I am quite impressed and actually are thinking of lobbying our local BB league to adopt the NTBB rules.

I would like to know if there are any plans of getting them integrated into the LRB, and if there will be an LRB7?

I am currently working in rural Kenya, not the strongest BB commitment here, so where can I find the PBeMNTBBL that you are starting in December, and are there room for me to join?

And now to some comments:

1. I think that SG are a welcome change, and besides using it on the SW it is really good way to maybe get it on the non-stunty teams. Seriously, your DP human lineman rolls a double, I would take the SG. Dark Elves: Hell yeah, thats what we have wanted forever!

2. SG and BWB... Well first I thought overpowered. But, in reality I dont know, cause I havent played and tried it. Ill let that one slide till we get someone (maybe me in a few months) that have tried it.

3. The Undead, how about 0-2 Ghouls instead? The bash would be contained a bit if they were constantly having to protect their ghouls. I think that grab is a very good idea on the Mummies, and G access is very exciting and a reason to play the Undead (except for an exceptionally good team). I agree that in the length it might be powerful, but from my playing experience it takes a lot of time to skill up these guys, and even a 3 skill Mummy will die as easily as a 0 skill mummy. In other words, I dont think that the problem lies with the Mummy or his skill access.

4. Wood elf. Eh, well, eh... I mean I think that fend is a skill that will increase survivability, but not really be that effective in a league play unless you want to place your WD in places that should stop the oppositions cage. That said, fend might be the thing that makes the WD survive up till her 3rd skill? So long term, an ok substitution, but in short term leagues and tournaments I think it is a very big nerf. On the other hand I like side-step, it would push strip-ball and still be viable for use in tournaments/short term leagues. However, it kind of rub some of the glory off the Elf blitzers. Oh well...

5. As a guy that just painted my first human team, I am so much in support of the AV8 catchers! It gives the tactic of actually sending 1 or 2 into the backfield of the opposition some credit instead of just writing them off as nuisances for your opponent/necessary casualties. IMO. 130K for the ogre on the other hand I have no idea about.

6. Vamps, if you find out that these guys still are missing something, I would really consider RR for 60K. That was my biggest concern in my league, lack of skills and RR at the same time that I was managing thralls going out, bloodlust and vamps rolling 1 for dodges or both down without block. So...

7. Gobbos. I like the idea about 2 lonerless trolls very much. Giving the SW SG I think is a bold move, but how will it affect the bribes the gobbos can already buy half-price? Will it devaluate the bribes, not making them as necessary, or will it increase their values? Will you take many more Star Players instead? Will it make Gobbos the new top tier 1 team? Does Eldril Sidewinder wear underpants? All in all I have a hard time foreseeing the consequences, but... Try it out!

And then 1 last thing I have been thinking about (just because I know you'll read it Martin): Change Wrestle to an Ag skill instead of general. I know, i know NTBB isnt about changing the rules, but it would be nice.

Cheerio,
Necro10c

[dode74]

Me too. And honestly, I don't see a logical link for babes affecting the outcome. They don't currently distract the ref, or how would that affect the KO result?

It's an "added function" if you like. Currently they nurse the KO'd players back to health, but there is no reason why they couldn't also distract the ref.

[Shteve0]

Me too. And honestly, I don't see a logical link for babes affecting the outcome. They don't currently distract the ref, or how would that affect the KO result?

It's an "added function" if you like. Currently they nurse the KO'd players back to health, but there is no reason why they couldn't also distract the ref.

As explanations go, that does nothing for me, sorry. Cheerleaders equally could do so. It's stretching to explain a clunky rule - it's already powerful enough, babes don't need to affect it.

[dode74]

I'm confused: do you not like it because it stretches the fluff (and I agree it is a potential option for cheerleaders for the same reasons) or because you think the mechanic is powerful enough? Your comment seems to include both, and I am wondering if you are disliking the mechanic and therefore coming up with a fluff reason to not implement it.

As an aside, cheerleaders and assistant refs could probably do with a little love, but I suspect this is outside the scope of NTBB.

[Shteve0]

Both; I think 4+ is easily powerful enough and that the explanation for making it potentially 2+ is flimsy at best.

Edit: and I wholeheartedly agree that it invades the Gobbo bribe USP generally, I'm afraid - with SG secret weapons and 50k/100k to pay in inducements, I'd go Babes every single time.

[dode74]

See, I don't know how powerful it would be and would prefer to see it tested before forming an opinion. Regarding the fluff aspect, it's only really flimsy if you have already made your mind up, imo

[plasmoid]

Hi guys,
sorry for the delay.
3 things first, then my take on the SG issue.

Shteve0: Yep, Reff distraction is a new feature of the Babe. But I don't think it is a big stretch that the referee could be distracted by a pretty girl handing out Bugmans Finest.

Fanglord13: SG as a single unmodified 4+. Sorry, I don't think anyone would spend hard earned SPPs on that. I'm fairly certain Garion would agree with me on this.

Anyway - here's where we're at:
The commish of Shteve0's league reported to me at the end of last season that they had not seen any SG abuse, but that he was worried that it was abuseable. I took that to Galak and Ian who, sensibly, replied that as long as it's all speculation we should playtest what has already been laid out rather than flip-flop on the issue.
I agree.

Now, the reports I'm getting is that SG is getting taken by some foulers. Until I get reports that someone is using SG in an abusive and overpowered way (not just as a viable strategy, which is fine, IMO) I'll put my faith in the balancing feature that the guy actually leaves the pitch. Abusing fouling generally requires you to establish supirior numbers, and SG doesn't really help with that.

The other issue is SWs. Had these been more widely available, then there might be an issue there. But they're not. The only skillable SWs are the unpopular dwarven DR and the weapons of the underpowered gobbos. In this particular context, after a lot of discussion, I don't see the problem. Gobbo weapons are their USP, and if they get better than their pricetag indicates, then the team will still be struggling.

Finally - yes, the SG makes BWBs compete with the Bribes. But they both have distinct advantages. Our in-house gobbo coach says he'd probably take both. Sometimes that chainsaw just needs to foul, and when it does a Bribe is pretty handy. As stated, when fouling keeping your guy on the pitch and avoiding the turnover is a pretty big deal.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

Fanglord13: SG as a single unmodified 4+. Sorry, I don't think anyone would spend hard earned SPPs on that. I'm fairly certain Garion would agree with me on this.


Now, the reports I'm getting is that SG is getting taken by some foulers. Until I get reports that someone is using SG in an abusive and overpowered way (not just as a viable strategy, which is fine, IMO)


Finally - yes, the SG makes BWBs compete with the Bribes. But they both have distinct advantages. Our in-house gobbo coach says he'd probably take both. Sometimes that chainsaw just needs to foul, and when it does a Bribe is pretty handy. As stated, when fouling keeping your guy on the pitch and avoiding the turnover is a pretty big deal.

Cheers
Martin

Yeah I don't think it would be worth taking on anyone other than Secret weapons if it was a 50% roll. Though I probably wouldn't take it on anyone other than SW even in its current nttb form. Possibly would take it on a dP player once my team was already at a high TV, because you can afford to a take a few sub par skills once at a high TV. But in its current NTTB form I could easily abuse the s**t out of it.

I also don't think you will see the worst until the skill gets used in a fast paced league, like any on fumbbl or cyanide. As much as I enjoyed PBeM drawing any conclusion from the data you get there is very spurious. The number of coaches is pretty small and the number of games is tiny.

Lets do a bit of theory bowl. And look at my first round Fumbbl Cup game - https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3353848

Now this team was built just to see how good a deathroller can be if you have all the inducement money in the world. In that game I had 3 bribes, a babe, Morg and a bombadier. Now if that deathroller had Sneaky Git . I would have dropped 2 bribes, keeping the 3rd just in case. And I would have had 200k more inducement money to spend, meaning I could take a wizard too which would make my team sooo much more powerful. And I could take a card, which may or may not be useful.

It was a tough game but I won, but if it had sneaky git I could happily play teams with a TV 100k more than me all the time and my deathroller would almost never get sent off, on top of this I could have fouled even more freely with the deathroller than I did with my 3 bribes.

What are BWBs by the way?

I just don't think the opportunity for abuse has been considered fully here. I wouldn't use this skill in the way you intended tbh, I would only abuse it with babes in a league. I think 50% is fine for the SW rolls, and I think you need to re-think the skill for fouling.

Why not just make it something more simple like... 'If the ref spots the foul then roll 1d6 on a 4, 5 or 6 the Sneaky Git player manages to convince the ref he did not commit the foul and the play continues. On a 1, 2 or 3. The player is sent off and it is a turn over as normal...' If you don't think that's enough then make that ^ an add on to the original CRP sneaky git rule.

This way you have a skill that cant be abused by the nonsensical babes distracting the ref stuff. It has the advantage of keeping the player on the pitch when fouling, rather than sent off then returning. The roll can be made at the end of a drive for SW players and if they pass the roll they move to the reserves. It doesn't confuse the KO and sent off thing, which on TT would probably require markers.

Also this fits the fluff far better and it is similar to rules and fluff from previous editions of the game including lrb4 and 2nd ed, just handled in a slightly different way.

[harroguk]

Wow, for a change I actually think Garrion speaks sense I think his rule is a lot less easily exploitable whilst maintaining the use of SG

[dode74]

BWBs = Bloodweiser Babes.

the nonsensical babes distracting the ref stuff

It's only non-sensical if you're not into girls. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but claiming that it's nonsense because of it is blinkered.
These are the RL Budweiser Beerleaders:

I would find that distracting