Shadowing

[fidius]

The truth about Assassins is that you can't risk using Stab until he has some protection skills, or he won't survive. So I'm trying a bit of an experiment with my online DE team: hired an Assassin to use as my Runner until he gets Block/Dodge, and maybe Fend or SS. In the meantime I'm hoping for a doubles for Multi-Block, or MA or AV increases (realistically, he needs both). Once that's going, I'll start getting him in on the action. Stab is beautiful because you can hit players much stronger, blodge and all, as a no-risk action. Playing with 2 blodging side-stepping assassins strikes me as a great deal of fun.

Shadowing doesn't seem like much on Mv6, but it's actually not bad at all. Even if all it does is suck up a RR, job done.

[swilhelm73]

A team in my division managed to get 2 multi-stab assassins.

It seems to me a lot of their success comes down to the rest of the team having a lot of guard.

So, for example, against my chaos dwarves stab has only a 1/6 chance of working - but since he has a crazy amount of guard as well there is no guarantee that I can get a 2D back on him even if his stab fails...

[mattgslater]

http://www.fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=749921

I'm really starting to see how stupid and worthless Shadowing is on a G-access player. It should be just a 2d6 ≥ opposing MA, or it should be an Agility skill. Or maybe a 6+ instead of a 7+.

[Aliboon]

I'm really starting to see how stupid and worthless Shadowing is on a G-access player. It should be just a 2d6 ≥ opposing MA, or it should be an Agility skill. Or maybe a 6+ instead of a 7+.

Can you elaborate - I can see the 2d6 bit - it is a general skill so maybe shouldn't be so linked to MA which is maybe more of a high agility team thang.

Agility skill - so gobbos or skinks could take it? To stop you wanting it as a general pick?


6+ - so it would be better as a skaven lino skill (after block presumably).

[NightDragon 2]

Probably because there are much better General skills. I have removed the assassin from my DE team now and unless I get a very experienced blitzer with loads of skills I can't see me ever choosing stab as a skill.

[Aliboon]

Probably because there are much better General skills.

Well that is true, but then there are much better Agility skills! If it were an Agility skill then nobody ever would take it on a double and whilst I could see a few AG only stunties (skinks) taking it instead of Diving Tackle, I don't see that making it an AG skill would make it better, or more likely to be taken.

There are better General skills for sure, but a Norse lino already has Block, he could then get Tackle, or Fend, or Dauntless, or Kick, or Dirty Player, which are all better skills than Shadowing, but I would also say they lose their utility to varying degrees after a player/a few players already have them, so after having them, wouldn't Shadowing be an option, especially on a Tackle player? I suppose there is a very valid argument that if a Norse lino hasn't doubled by his 2nd skill, then he should be replaced (unless the kicker anyway).

I don't recall ever taking Shadowing, but it is my planned next (normal) skill for my stat freak 9447 Blodge, Leap, Frenzy, Side-step Wardancer - are there better options for him - Tackle or Stripball maybe (but my other WD has those) or Fend for survivability?

It seems to me that Shadowing is only really a good choice on fast players, survivable players (at least MA7 if not 8 and block/AV8 or blodge AV7). Not many players fit that bill - a late pick on the elven blitzers, grunners and elven catchers. Possibly even human blitzers and maybe skaven linos who have block already and there isn't another general skill the team need more.

[Dzerards]

I found it surprisingly brilliant as a late skill on one Saurus.

[Smeborg]

I think Norse Linos are possibly good candidates for Shadowing in certain circumstances. The general idea I have is to develop 2 types of Norse Lino:

(a) Fend, Tackle, Shadowing (the anti-AG Linos)

(b) Fend, Dauntless, Pro (the anti-bash Linos)

Seems viable to me, remains to be tested.

[Aliboon]

I suppose fast is a relative concept. Shadowing works when you are at least as fast and idealy faster than your opo, so I can see it working in the scrum for teams with ma6 players who are happy to stay in base to base contact with their slower opos - so that could bring in the ma6 general skills only linos on bashy teams too (and sauri). So I could see that working for Norse - I am intrigued why Matt has found it so useless on his norse then - his win/loss record is still pretty good on hs shadowing norse afterall.

[Smeborg]

The truth about Assassins is that you can't risk using Stab until he has some protection skills, or he won't survive. So I'm trying a bit of an experiment with my online DE team: hired an Assassin to use as my Runner until he gets Block/Dodge, and maybe Fend or SS. In the meantime I'm hoping for a doubles for Multi-Block, or MA or AV increases (realistically, he needs both). Once that's going, I'll start getting him in on the action. Stab is beautiful because you can hit players much stronger, blodge and all, as a no-risk action. Playing with 2 blodging side-stepping assassins strikes me as a great deal of fun.

Shadowing doesn't seem like much on Mv6, but it's actually not bad at all. Even if all it does is suck up a RR, job done.

The problem with Assassins IMO is that you want to stab with them a lot (I do, anyway), when very often another action (e.g. move) is better than stabbing. So the team slows down and becomes less dynamic. In addition, they increase TV while lowering the team's AV.

I have seen a pair of Assassins deployed very effectively against the slower running teams (Orcs, Dwarfs), using their Shadowing against the ball carrier. But based on my own playing experience with them, I don't see that as sufficient reason to hire them. I see them as an inducement option in the right circumstances (the best I achieved was hiring 2 Merc Assassins and Horkon against a Skaven team, the opposing coach was not a happy bunny).

[fidius]

I'm really starting to see how stupid and worthless Shadowing is on a G-access player. It should be just a 2d6 ≥ opposing MA, or it should be an Agility skill. Or maybe a 6+ instead of a 7+.

Maybe it's one of those skills that compensates for its suckiness by its entertainment value as far as the developers are concerned? But regardless, the math says it's actually no easier to escape from than Tentacles, and I don't see people disparaging that skill. Granted the effects are slightly different... But a MA6 player has a 42% chance (8+) to escape from an Assassin, just as a ST3 player has a 42% chance to escape from a Beast (ST5). But you can't block or blitz away from a Shadower like you can from Tenters, and in scrums it can become highly interesting, gaining you position and advancing your field position. If you're marking Gutter Runners and expecting to slow them down, then yeah, OK, it sucks... But maybe that's what Diving Tackle is for.

Hmm... Shadowing Pestigors... Smeborg, how come that's not part of your stymie scheme??

[fidius]

And while we're talking rules changes that will never happen, to make Assassins worth taking... MA7 would make a ton of sense, but even better would be allowing MB (or some other new Injury+1 skill) to work with Stab. I think that would be very cool. It should probably just ignore armour as well, ie 8+ to penetrate; after all, if Claw works that way, why wouldn't a sharp blade? Of course if you beef it up like that you might need a countereffect, so maybe doubles on a Stab means you're sent off, just like fouling (rerollable with Sneaky Git)...

I've gone OT, sorry.

[Smeborg]

Hmm... Shadowing Pestigors... Smeborg, how come that's not part of your stymie scheme??

I gave a lot of consideration at one time to Tackle + Prehensile Tail on the Pestigors (+ Diving Tackle on a doubles). I decided against it in the end, in favour of a more active skill set. But I will confess that I have not given very much thought to Shadowing. The Pests have an extreme version of a common BB problem: too many skills chasing too few slots.

All the best.

[mattgslater]

@ Aliboon: Shadowing has been pure silly fail, doesn't mean the team is worthless. Low-TV Norse are still pretty good, 4-1-2 is par for the course for me, and sporting a couple Guard linos really makes a big impact.

* Players with marking skills do a lot of marking. This means if they do their job right, they'll get blitzed a lot. PT and Tentacles tend to be found on strong players, PT because it's not good enough and Tentacles because it's Strength-dependent, and both are natural skills for some big guys. DT tends to be a follow-up to Blodge/SS and Tackle, or a double for blocker-types. Shadowing is harder in this regard: the better you are at getting hit, as a rule, the worse your MA, and the worse Shadowing is for you.

* Shadowing works about half the time, not enough for you to game on it, but not enough for your opponent to game on it. When it does work, it forces another die roll, not an end-action or turnover, unlike Tentacles, DT, or PT. Seldom does anybody burn a TRR on Shadowing. Players who dodge at all are usually good at dodging, so the odds are in their favor (put another way, 2+ on their 1d6 vs 10+ on Shadowing escape would be even money, and 10+ is hard to engineer).

* You can respond to Shadowing by dodging somewhere the Shadower doesn't want to go: this is much easier than gaming Shadowing by forcing a dodge to somewhere your opponent doesn't want your Shadower to go, though I have pulled that off at least once so far.

[Dzerards]

* You can respond to Shadowing by dodging somewhere the Shadower doesn't want to go: this is much easier than gaming Shadowing by forcing a dodge to somewhere your opponent doesn't want your Shadower to go, though I have pulled that off at least once so far.

Matt makes a very good point in this regard. It pays to think about where a successful shadow will take you.

One time an opponent used a Perfect Defence to overload the LOS. There wasn't even a 1 die block to be had, so I declared a blitz and dodged off the line. I was shadowed by a DE assassin who was unaware that he was the intended target. He followed one square, away from all his buddies and got two die blocked off the pitch (KOed). The gap allowed me to two die block the whole way down the LOS.