Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[Smeborg]

Another lucky and plucky win for my Khorne team, this time against a sportingly played Elf team (TDs: 3-2, CAS: 3-1). My opponent was the pioneer of Khorne in our league. I had several instances of good fortune, notably:

- 2 turnovers on consecutive turns by my opponent, allowing me a turnover score (after that we traded TDs for the rest of the game)
- 2 touchbacks
- My ball carrier surviving a surf attempt by an Elf Lineman with Frenzy (!), the second block was a skull (RR already used)
- Succeeding with a risky score attempt (3+ dodge, 4+ pass, 3+ catch, GFI), this was forced after the Bloodthirster rolled 3 ones in a row
- A riot at the end of the match, reducing proceedings to 1 turn left (my opponent had a theoretical chance of turning me over for the draw)

Despite the near absence of the Bloothirster (see above post), this was a good win, it felt like a case of fortune favouring the bold. Khorne require a mixture of prudent play and bold moves, not unlike Chaos. I am becoming more practised at using a Wild Animal, at least on offensive drives I had him parked where he could be used as a cage corner while rolling 1s. Here is the team after just 5 games:

Bloodthirster: M-Blow (13 SPPs)
2 rookie Heralds with 0 SPPs
Bloodletter: S-Hands (13)
Bloodletter: Block (10)
Bloodletter: Block (6)
Bloodletter: +1AG (6)
Pit Fighter: S-Hands (13)
Pit Fighter: Leader, [-1MA] (10)
Pit Fighter: - (5)
Pit Fighter: - (4)
Pit Fighter: - (3)
Pit Fighter: - [MNG] (0)
2RR, 4FF, Apoth, Treasury: 0, TV137 (143 if you add the MNG Pit Fighter)

The roster is complete apart from 1AC/1CL which I intend to buy. 83 SPPs is extroadinary for a non-AG team at this stage, it reflects that I have played against 2 Stunty teams (8 SPP CAS in those games), and that Khorne are forced to trade TDs, given that they cannot stall (thus they tend to score more TDs than Orcs, Dwarfs, Nurgle, Khemri etc.). The team has a very different look and feel to my first attempt, which was without the Bloodthirster, but started with 2 Heralds (this time both of ther poor Heralds are rookies). 2 Sure Hands players plus another with +1AG looks like redundancy, but I don't mind, it will give excellent skill resilience in a defensive scramble, or when Khorne manage to turn the ball over (this can be very difficult for them, they lack the skills to move the ball after it is spilled, often the RR for the turn has been used already). The team looks like it ought to continue skilling up nicely.

All the best.

[Megr1m]

I'm running a Khorne team in a league as well, so I've got some comments & questions:

I've gone for Break Tackle (to be followed by Guard) as core on the 'thirster, instead of MB, because I find that I need the one high-strength piece to be in several places at once. I'm not sure investing in more and more xp by giving him MB and designating him as primary blitzer is a good long-term strategy.

I've also tried to focus on developing the Bloodletter as much as I can, trying to Blodge them up asap, because I suspect they are the most important guys on the team. My plan is to go go for Blodge -> Guard on all four, though this might change.

As a result, the development of Heralds has lagged behind, with me wanting to mould both into the MB -> Block -> Guard route and become the primary hitters. However, I've not really been able to generate a lot of points on them and they are starting to feel a bit left behind. This does open up some reconsideration - what do you think about building one (or both) into a Wrestle -> Tackle/Strip Ball piece? Given the initial availability of Horns/Juggernaut/Frenzy, these guys are prime candidates for aggressive ball hunting.

With the exception of a Leader/+1AG cultist, I've largely ignored the development of the linos because I'm not sure that trying to level guys with their stat-line is worthwhile over time. My thoughts are that their Frenzy is much better served by developing a ton of Block and Guard on the positionals, which will result in a lot more (positionally safe) two-die blocks.

Curiously, until I lucked out with the AG increase, I was running the ball without Sure Hands by just giving it to one of the Bloodletters (later the first one to hit Blodge would be the prime carrier). I'm honestly not sure where to stick SH on this team, because cultists are unreliable and the positionals have better things to take. Has Strip Ball been at all an issue for you? In theory, if I were facing this team I would exploit that ball-carrying weakness as much as I could, but in my experience not many teams bother to invest in SB, so I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from a season's worth of games where I just lugged the ball around naked.

Looking at tactics, how much would you say massed Frenzy effects your and your opponents choices regarding where on the pitch to pick a fight? In terms of positioning, I've found that while most players will concede the sidelines almost immediately, a few (especially with high ST pieces) have been able to lock me up into the sideline and actually use the Frenzy against me. At the same time, if at the start they make the mental concession to not go near the sides, I've found it much easier to direct the flow of the game and concentrate on winning the scrum, even if later in the game obvious opportunities develop for my opponent to exploit the sidelines.

Finally, with AG increases on the 'QB' cultist - passing game, yay or nay?

[Smeborg]

Hi Megrim - good questions.

Sorry, I'm busy at the moment, but I expect to respond in a couple of days time.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Megr1m - my apologies for the delay. Here I go.

B-Tackle is a good, indeed a very good skill on the Bloodthirster, it prevents him being marked out of the game, and makes him a more potent threat. I have started with M-Blow for 2 reasons: firstly it helps him to keep skilling up (M-Blow+Claw yields a lot of CAS), and secondly I find Khorne quite weak against bash teams, I feel they need a can opener in order to try and maintain parity of numbers. I tend to use him as the primary blitzer only when the team can afford him to fail (e.g. turn 1), or when the match-up suggests getting opponents off the pitch is a good strategy.

I agree that the Bloodletters seem to be the most important players on the team, perhaps because of their "discipline" (lack of Frenzy). Mine seem to get a lot of SPPs, which I regard as no bad thing. They also seem to have reasonably good skill retention, despite their AV7 (because of Regen - the other players tend to suffer as the Apoth is often used early in the match). I agree in principle with the Block+Dodge strategy, however, on my team I am now considering Block followed by Guard on 2 of the Bloodletters (they have Block already, the other Bloodletters have S-Hands/MA7 and +AG, no-one on the team has Guard yet).

I have the same problem with the Heralds - because I started with none, after 6 games I have 2 Heralds with no SPPs! I think a case can be made for 1 or 2 ball-hunting Heralds. If I were doing so, I might start with S-Ball. Wrestle+Juggernaut implies slight redundancy, although I like the idea of the combination on Witch Elves. I am very happy with Wrestle on the Linos, therefore I don't see the need for it on the Heralds (and it seems to mute any slayer skills that they might take later, M-Blow etc.). I experimented with Wrestle on Werewolves (Necro team), it was a failure. But by all means have a go and see what happens.

I think of the Linos in somewhat different ways. They are the cannon fodder of the team, lurking on the defensive LoS or in screening positions where they are likely to get hit or marked. Because of this and Frenzy, they often seem out of position when it comes to blocking (e.g. often they can get only a 1-die block, and/or they can be Frenzy-trapped on their second block). These problems seem particularly evident in and around the cage (whether Khorne's or their opponent's). And lastly the team is short of Tackle (it is hard to make the case for early Tackle on any player, thus somebody probably needs to take Wrestle). So all in all, this suggests to me Wrestle on the Linos as first skill (followed by Dauntless, for essentially the same reasons). This worked well for me on my first Khorne team. It maximises their block power from weak positions (e.g. 1-die blocks). I now have 2 Wrestle Linos on my new Khorne team, we will see how it works out!

Strip Ball has not been a problem for me so far. I take S-Hands on this and other teams primarily as a means to save precious re-rolls, and as a defence against the common situation where you blow a re-roll early in the turn (e.g. on a failed block), but have yet to pick up the ball. I am also trying to create a Khorne team with a credible 2-turn scoring threat (otherwise it becomes all too easy to beat them). Khorne are (very) good at forcing opponents to score before they want to, it seems to be their main strength, but it's all to no avail if Khorne can't score back. Because of their raw blitz-power, Khorne can be good at sacking the ball-carrier, but they are annoyingly weak when it comes to doing anything with the ball once it is spilt. S-Hands is intended to help with this (often the RR for the turn will have been used).

Yes, opponents often concede both sidelines, but a canny opponent will often not do so, or will do so sparingly (the downside for him is that it costs him more players to do so). Reducing the opponent's numbers (even if Khorne are losing players too) helps to make it difficult for the opponent to block the sideline. I don't see Khorne winning the scrum easily against any well tooled-up bash team, I think they need to keep the field position dynamic if they can, allowing them to score early when forced.

For the +AG Pit Fighter, I would definitely take the quarterback route.

One of the neat things about the Khorne team is that you can prioritise almost any player for development, by putting him regularly into Receiver position early in your offensive drive (I find the team is often forced to take the escape route and score early, although not always of course).

Hope that helps. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

[Smeborg]

LUCKY WIN AGAINST GOBBOS - A LESSON
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My ahem much vaunted Khorne team had another match recently, a lucky 3-1 win against Gobbos (CAS: 4-3). It was lucky on 2 counts. First, my opponent was unable to pick up the ball for most of the match, and when he did, he would promptly fail a dodge (he only held the ball for 2 turns, one of these was a one-turn-score, the other time he was out of position, and the ball carrier was promptly sacked). Second, the Gobbos managed to get 3 CAS in the first 2 or 3 turns (a Troll block, a Ball & Chain with M-Blow, a foul). Since I had 1 MNG player, this left Khorne with 9 men to set up for each of the remaining drives (once with 8 thanks to a KO). If lowly Gobbos can do this, it tells me that Khorne will tend to dissolve against any team with a fair sprinkling of M-Blow (Khorne have relatively low AV, the average is below 8, no starting Block). I am starting to wonder if 13 players is enough, as I always seem to have 1 MNG player (the next match is the same). On the plus side, I feel so far that 2RR + Leader is adequate.

The Bloodthirster had another indifferent match, although he did put the Ball & Chain in the dugout, and KO'd a Troll IIRC. No real CAS for Khorne, all 4 CAS suffered by the Gobbos were self-inflicted. It will be a long time (if at all) before any players other than the Bloodthirster have M-Blow.

The team now has 10 skills after just 6 matches. We will see whether they are able to retain these skills.

All the best.

[Nephron]

Hi guys,

the league finally started again. I won my first match 1:0 against a Necromantic team. Two of my players leveled up, but I am unsure about what skills I should take.

First is a Cultist with Block and +AG. He rolled a 10 (no double). Should I take the +MA? Before knowing the roll, I was thinking about SureHands, since I dont have a player with it atm. What would you recommend?

The other one is my Bloodthirster with MB and Guard. He also rolled a 10 (again no double). Here I was thinking about ignoring the 10 and taking BreakTackle. What do you think?

[swilhelm73]

I would take +MA on the cultist - it will make him a better runner/thrower/safety.

For the thirster I don't think the movement is as important, so I would probably take BT.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

+MA is the best stat for a MA6 guy who wants to be a ballcarrier so yeah take it.
Piling On for the Bloodthirster. BT or SF if you really want. Definitely not + MA.

[Smeborg]

Nephron - I would take +MA on the Pit Fighter. It makes him a rather versatile player on or off the ball.

For the Bloodthirster, I am unsure, but I would be tempted to take the +MA. His longer reach would make him more threatening. It means he would need to GFI less often. And I quite often find with the BT that I have to GFI after surfing a player (in order to get off the sideline). I guess it depends on how you typically use the BT on your team.

If you don't want to take +MA on the BT, I guess S-Firm would fit reasonably well with Guard.

Hope that helps.

[neverworking]

I'd take the + MV on the cultist for certain. The +AG is good enough for ball handling as it is and the extra move will help a lot.

I think for the Bloodthirster I'd be tempted by the +MV but BT is an excellent choice too. Both will have their advantages in the short run. I agree the extra move will be helpful in positioning him and getting him off the sideline, though stand firm will also let him finish on the sideline too.

[Nephron]

A lot of interesting suggestions.

I think I'll take the +MA on the Cultist. Need to check the amount of Strip Ball in my group this season first, but I think aside from the Woodelves, the skill is not often seen in the group.

Im am still not sure with the BT. I didn't really think about giving him the +MA, but you make a good point. But I don't think it would help a lot until he also gets BT. I don't like PO on him. I would loose his Guard and give the opponent an opportunity to foul. I use him mainly to bind other players and only blitz with him, when I can afford it.
I will need to think about that one, but I think the choice is between BT and +MA.

Thanks for the input!

[Smeborg]

I am unsure about P-On on a Wild Animal (Jimmy's suggestion). Of course ClawPOMB is a powerful combination. But voluntarily putting a Wild Animal on the ground will concede a positional advantage against a good opponent. All he needs to do is play so as to force you to take a blitz with another player, and you have a 50% chance that the Wild Animal will be left on the ground.

I am open-minded about B-Tackle. I think it is a good skill on a player such as a Bloodthirster, especially when used actively (e.g. as primary blitzer). My reason for recommending S-Firm (as an alternative to +1MA) is that the Bloodthirster in question already has Guard, making him potentially useful in a passive role.

[Smeborg]

A SUGGESTED DEVELOPMENT PATH
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It occurs to me that one way to go with Khorne in a league, instead of taking early Sure Hands (as I have done), is to wait until a player gets a stat increase (typically a Bloodletter or Pit Fighter with +AG or +MA), and to make that player the Runner/Thrower.

At the same time, I do not feel that my early Sure Hands has been wasted. After 7 games my better ball handlers are:

Bloodletter with S-Hands/+MA (19 SPPs).
Bloodletter with +AG (9 SPPs).
Pit Fighter with S-Hands (13 SPPs). Probably he will take Pass next, for those 2-turn score attempts.

S-Hands has been particularly useful in the scramble (e.g. after I have sacked an opposing ball carrier).

Hope that helps.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

If I am spending >200 TV on a killer I want to be blitzing with him every turn. Here is an example - https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team ... _id=685213

[Smeborg]

Jimmy - I agree that if you take the Bloodthirster, you should blitz with him a lot. But for me that doesn't mean every turn (just most turns). And as stated above, I don't think P-On is a good fit on a Wild Animal.

All the best.