Reconsidering the ruling on Khorne?

[harvestmouse]

Well sure ok. My thoughts on the eye was it was a cumbersome mechanic on TT (which I guess it is until you are used to it). My thoughts were more on 'keeping track of it' rather than dice, but I can concede that.

I'm anti TV as a means of anything bar monitoring your teams rating, changes in team rating and using that as a factor. Inducements are a massive improvement over handicaps, but in the perpetual world still problematic. Ok matching via TV is optional. However there is no official way of matching, nor work (officially) done to match teams any other way.

By that I mean in testing TV works perfectly for resurrection and new short leagues, maybe okish for perpetual divisional leagues. However for me in open leagues it's a horror story.

This is off topic though, and I'm sorry for that. The bottom line is I personally would be pretty happy for hobbywide collaboration, lead by the NAF. As long as all sides have their say, and that GWs original premise for the game is respected.

[Darkson]

BB was created for TT, and the rules reflect that (I doubt there are many TT teams, let alone leagues, that have lasted for as long as online teams/leagues have). I concede there are problems with TV etc for online play, but JJ was adamant the rules were only for TT (admittedly this before Cyanide had the official rights to produce a game).

[PercyTheTroll]

Has any effort been made to get in touch with Cyanide regarding the future of the rules of the game (or even to see if Khorne is going to remain in BB2)?

For all that BB1 is frustrating and cack handed there are some people at Cyanide who clearly love the game and the fluff and if the NAF could tap into those people a way forward may be found.

It's going to be difficult producing a new ruleset that works for both TT and Cyanide because if it's a simple change that requires lots of coding then Cyanide are going to oppose it - it's not in their commercial interests to make that change. But I'm sure a balance could be found if there was willingness from Cyanide and even maybe GW to set up a body to update the rules.

[sann0638]

Strong efforts are being made, yes, but not a good idea to give a public commentary.

[PercyTheTroll]

Good oh, and I totally agree with keeping things under wraps

Best of luck then to all at the NAF!

[harvestmouse]

I'd have thought the problem is a legal one; i.e. being tied to GW rather than not wanting to on par with everybody else. The fact they've needed to rely on the BB community every time they've tried something new, suggests they don't have anybody in full time employment that is even partially competent at making rule decisions about Blood Bowl.

[VoodooMike]

Online and TT play have really developed differently, and I don't think the NAF generally should be or should feel obliged to govern online perpetual environments.

The fact that any pressure exists on the NAF to accept, as official for TT play, a roster that originates in online play suggests that there is no such dividing line. In fact, we've heard from many people that the khorne roster is being played in various TT leagues and tournaments.

Further to this, the NAF was never set up to make rule and roster decisions for the ruleset. I'm not saying they couldn't necessarily do the job; just that it isn't an easy one and outside their remit.

It's not about the NAF deciding to name itself king now that GW has stepped aside, it's about the NAF deciding what it will or will not treat as official itself - that has always been within its mandate. As an organization, the NAF has existed for a long time, and is well-established among BB players. To this end, with GW removing itself as an active participant from the BB world, players will, and have, been asking "who's in charge now?" and many of them will, and have decide that the NAF is the best choice for that role.

It doesn't mean the NAF can magically force people to play a certain way, it just means that they have been the primary candidate in the minds of many BB players to take over the role of "Arbiters of Blood Bowl". That's the decision the NAF has to make... will they accept that mantle, or will they continue on in their lesser role and let others make the game's major decisions instead?

To date, the NAF has neither accepted, nor overtly rejected the role. They're putting off difficult decisions for as long as they can, and in doing so the decision is going to end up being made for them. Players are looking to the NAF for leadership, and the NAF is not providing it. That isn't delaying the answer to the question, that IS an answer, and it's the worst possible answer.

By that I mean in testing TV works perfectly for resurrection and new short leagues, maybe okish for perpetual divisional leagues.

If we need to decide who is in charge of a group, flipping a coin "works perfectly" if the group has only two people in it. If the group has a million people in it, that method's faults will become more and more apparent. It's a simple matter of scope - TV isn't perfect for anything, its effect is simply trivialized in small environments.

Strong efforts are being made, yes, but not a good idea to give a public commentary.

I see that NAF isn't just considering adopting Cyanide/Focus's rosters, but its PR style as well..

[sann0638]

I see that NAF isn't just considering adopting Cyanide/Focus's rosters, but its PR style as well..

Shots fired! As the kids would say...

[harvestmouse]

Personally I can't see anybody touching the NAF in the foreseeable future. I think they can delay any such decision making for as long as the game is still popular. And as I said, there's no real problem with the TT scene rule pack.

FUMBBL has aligned itself to the NAF, Christer has stated that the site will follow NAF rulings. That was one potential nominee. PBeM doesn't really have any followers outside of it's users. Saying that, it does look like Cyanide will use a Plasmoid roster (or the base of one at least) in it's next edition. So right now, that just leaves Cyanide. Their power waxes and wanes depending on when a new version is released.

Any rules Cyanide decide to change, would have to go through GW first, due to them being official. So far GW have taken the standpoint of 'Ok, you can do it for the online version, but damned if we're letting you monkeys **** around with the official rules'.

There seems very little market for another player right now, certainly not on TT. OBBL, BB France and Da Leeg have all fallen away. Stepping up and making a client that's better than what's available would bring another player into the game of course (that indeed might happen for hand held devices for example), but being a rule decider........no I don't think so.

So what about GW? Well without all the 3rd party figures out there, it's certain at some point they'd pick it up again. However has BB developed into a badly behaved dog it doesn't want to touch anymore? It's not really GW's animal now, and touching it could be a bad marketing policy.

So in my mind, yes the balls in the NAF court, however they have all the time in the world to play this shot. I could be wrong though.

[VoodooMike]

Shots fired! As the kids would say...

The only time transparency is a bad idea is when you're doing the wrong thing, or not doing what people expect you to do. Cyanide/Focus are vague and opaque specifically for that reason, and they should be seen not as an example to follow but as a cautionary tale.

PBeM doesn't really have any followers outside of it's users.

The same can be said of FUMBBL, though. The only things we've seen bleed into other formats are Cyanide's khorne roster, the occasional reference to the NAF's tournaments and formats over on Cyanide and FUMBBL, and possibly the use of the brets in BB2.

So right now, that just leaves Cyanide. Their power waxes and wanes depending on when a new version is released.

I'm not sure it's that fleeting. Chaos Edition was released in 2012, and the use of (and pressure to treat as official) the khorne roster from that game doesn't seem to be tapering off. Their influence on BB as a whole seems pretty firm, and I suspect will not decrease unless they make major, incompatible changes to the game's rules in their release of BB2. They are, afterall, the only people stepping up to the microphone at this point.

Any rules Cyanide decide to change, would have to go through GW first, due to them being official. So far GW have taken the standpoint of 'Ok, you can do it for the online version, but damned if we're letting you monkeys **** around with the official rules'.

Really? It seems to me that so far GW has taken the standpoint of "........<television static>.....". GW has completely thrown out the official rules as far as any of us can tell, not even making much of an effort to put those rules in the hands of the players, so the official rules are as much television static as GW's guidance on these matters. We're taking the last version they posted as gospel, but the longer time drags on without any words or signs from the great gods of BB, the less people seem inclined to adhere strongly to their final transmissions.

If we honestly believe that Cyanide is channeling GW to the degree that you claim then the Khorne roster should be treated as official immediately, and everyone should gear up to treat the Bretonnian roster as official as well. GW has not voiced an opinion about the TT rules in either direction that I am aware of, so if their only official involvement in BB is with Cyanide as their high priest then its time we all genuflected... personally, I am unconvinced.

Stepping up and making a client that's better than what's available would bring another player into the game of course (that indeed might happen for hand held devices for example), but being a rule decider........no I don't think so.

Online has a major effect on large-scale, organized TT... that's the biggest take-away from this discussion. We're on the umpteenth discussion of whether or not a purely computer-based roster should officially be adopted by the largest TT BB organization in the world, and the roster is being played by enough people that the NAF has ruled that it can be played in tournaments, the games played with them just don't get counted for their record keeping. That's already a huge effect, and it's a huge effect even before the NAF has made a firm decision.

So, I do agree a new client (more importantly, a client in conjunction with a play environment) would introduce a new major player to the game, but I disagree that it couldn't be a rule decider. I think players are looking for leadership and direction, and the only major player that is offering it thus far is Cyanide... and as time goes on without that situation changing, more people are warming to the idea of being led by Cyanide, which is scary since Cyanide isn't so much leading as just walking in whatever direction it feels like. The only reason that Cyanide CAN lead is its game client... game clients offer a pre-implemented set of rules that people can dive right into, and online play offers widespread, frequent, and easily accessed play so it backs these rulesets with inertia that is hard to get in the TT world.

I don't think anyone is likely to do it, though. That, and it's unrelated to the NAF, for the time being.

So in my mind, yes the balls in the NAF court, however they have all the time in the world to play this shot. I could be wrong though.

I hope you're NOT wrong, but I suspect you are. Over the years I've seen many people decide that they are in a cushy position that doesn't require they act or make decisions because there's nobody else around to replace them... and in almost every single case they've been shocked to discover that everybody and everything can be replaced, and in a heartbeat. The NAF's influence in the australasia region, and the whole near-schism over there should have been a warning about extended complacency.

I am not anti-NAF... in fact, I'm one of the people who sees NAF as the leading choice for directing BB as a whole. I am, however, someone who sees the NAF squandering its opportunities and being a do-nothing organization in the past few years. I don't much care for the Khorne roster, or the Bretonnians... but I'd rather see the NAF officially support them than to take no firm, official stance on them at all. I'd obviously rather they make a firm decision to NOT adopt the Khorne roster in any format, and to implement their own criteria for roster inclusion, etc... but I'll take ANY decision over none.

[Darkson]

and the roster is being played by enough people that the NAF has ruled that it can be played in tournaments, the games played with them just don't get counted for their record keeping. That's already a huge effect, and it's a huge effect even before the NAF has made a firm decision.

Just to point out that isn't a ruling they've made post-Khorne, that has been the rule for many years, it's just that many NAF coaches weren't aware of it, and it was rarely used.

[plasmoid]

Hi Harvestmouse and all,

Harvestmouse said:

I feel particularly towards the end, the BBRC was very NAF orientated. The ruleset really is awesome for resurrection style tournaments, yet has glaring weaknesses for long haul perpetual divisions.

and

By that I mean in testing TV works perfectly for resurrection and new short leagues, maybe okish for perpetual divisional leagues. However for me in open leagues it's a horror story.

Just for the record, however it turned out, CRP was created with League play in mind.
Lots of changes were made to the TV system, all of them in an attempt to make the measuring more accurate, so that in turn the handicap/inducement system would Work better, and make matches fairly even.

I agree that in open League play, it there are major problems. AFAIK, there are somewhat similar problems en very long term divisional League play.

But how would one improve the TV system further?
I suppose one way would be working to make all skills more equal. Either by buffing, nerfing or both. Could be a fun task. But utterly sisyphean.
I suppose one of the problem lies with skill combos, especially the strongest ones - where, supposedly, you get more value than is reflected by the TV boost. More than anything I'm thinking Blodge and (C)POMB.

I discussed two other (mutually exclusive) fixes with Galak and Ian back when we discussed CRP+, but neither of them found it to be worth it.
1. Power Tax: Some skills are just plain better and come with a +10K Premium.
Those skills are(?): Block (G), Piling On (S), Guard (S), Dodge (A), Leader (P), Claw (M)
I get that starting with Block would be great. But I figure wrestle would also become more prolific. And wrestle trumps block.

2. Combo Tax: Based on the assumption that players always make the best skill picks, and so should pay for the ability to combo.
A player pays a +10K Premium for each skill picked beyond the first. (So a player with 3 skill picks has his Price increased by 20K).
Bad thing would be that this further discourages fun skill picks (but does anybody do that anyway?)
This does bring skill pricing a touch closer to what it was in previous additions, where SPPs resulted in increased TV.

Personally, I'd prefer option #1.
Cheers
Martin

[MattDakka]

I discussed two other (mutually exclusive) fixes with Galak and Ian back when we discussed CRP+, but neither of them found it to be worth it.
1. Power Tax: Some skills are just plain better and come with a +10K Premium.
Those skills are(?): Block (G), Piling On (S), Guard (S), Dodge (A), Leader (P), Claw (M)
I get that starting with Block would be great. But I figure wrestle would also become more prolific. And wrestle trumps block.

Taxing Block, a core skill, would make some teams even worse, imagine overpriced teams such as Slann or Human paying Block 30k.

[plasmoid]

We could either
a) Don't tax block
or
b) Suck it up. It's 1 TV extra per pop. Humans start with 4. Could take a few more, and then branch out to other interesting skills. Maybe we'd see other skills get used more!
Slann could take a Little block and a lot of wrestle. Wrestle suits them fine anyway.

Just saying: If it is so friggin' good, then it's probably worth the +10K.

Cheers
Martin

[spubbbba]

I discussed two other (mutually exclusive) fixes with Galak and Ian back when we discussed CRP+, but neither of them found it to be worth it.
1. Power Tax: Some skills are just plain better and come with a +10K Premium.
Those skills are(?): Block (G), Piling On (S), Guard (S), Dodge (A), Leader (P), Claw (M)
I get that starting with Block would be great. But I figure wrestle would also become more prolific. And wrestle trumps block.

I've always like this idea, but taken further. Combine it with having 5k pricing and have the best skills cost more (your list and a few other like MB) and the rubbish ones cost 10k.

I think you would have to make some players more expensive such as Dwarfs to compensate. But the 5k pricing would allow pricing to be more granular on other players with price drops on some of them.