Reconsidering the ruling on Khorne?

[Decker_cky]

Let's bust open some myths here.

NTBB is not based on statistics, nor is it about narrowing bands. It's based on observation and is about narrowing the gap between tiers, not within them.

It absolutely is. You can question the value of the statistics he used, but he absolutely uses the stats he has access to base his changes.

The CRP+ rules are rules compiled and circulated by plasmoid to BBRC members. That they didn't object to the idea that they would be worth testing is a world away from saying they were on the way to adopting them.

I believe the start of them (at least most of them) was a list of things Galak wanted to test, with ones the former BBRC members all were willing to give their support to making the cut. Some things had interpretation (improving human catchers were one thing, and the CRP+ choice was probably the most conservative change than the S3 suggestion).

Plasmoid allows (encourages?) a lot of grey area to develop around his house rules and fosters a legitimacy to them that honestly I don't believe exists. Which is a shame as it unfortunately detracts from some decent ideas (and some not so decent ideas).

They're all house rules, and aside from how he presents it by putting CRP+ on the narrowing tiers page, he's pretty up front about it (he explains himself, but IMO that doesn't get around the presentation issue and what it implies).

Overall, if there were a new BBRC, the changes suggested in CRP+ would probably be the first changes to look at (maybe not the specific changes, but those would mostly be the first issues to consider). Narrowing tiers includes some of the next changes they might consider.

I think the results would look a lot different, and I think there would be other things looked at, but I don't think its a bad place to look as a suggestion for quick fixes to issues with the current ruleset.

[harvestmouse]

I think the main point here that it appears that Plasmoid's work whether it's NTBB or CRP+ is influencing Cyanide.

[VoodooMike]

It absolutely is. You can question the value of the statistics he used, but he absolutely uses the stats he has access to base his changes.

The BB community in general, and certainly NTBB, suffers from a viciously stupid case of equivocation when it comes to the word "statistics". Things like the mean, mode, median... those are descriptive statistics - that's the stuff you learned in highschool, and it is in no way predictive of anything. It tells you a bit about the data you already have and nothing else.

When people talk about using statistics in any real way.. such as to predict things about a larger population, or about the future, or whatever, what we're talking about is inferential statistics - that's the stuff you learn in university in order to do research. If you're claiming to use statistics as a justification for anything, it has to be this sort.

What folks like plasmoid (and really the BB community in general) do is mix simple descriptives with distilled water, the blood of a virgin (likely themselves), and squirrel dandruff, then wave their hogwart's magic wand over it, and pretend the results are valid inferential statistics. They're not. They're what is known in academic circles as bullshit statistics (the inclusion of the word "statistics" in that is entirely optional).

Overall, if there were a new BBRC, the changes suggested in CRP+ would probably be the first changes to look at (maybe not the specific changes, but those would mostly be the first issues to consider). Narrowing tiers includes some of the next changes they might consider.

I sure as hell hope not, but since we're talking about what actions a group that doesn't exist would take I suppose it's hard to argue against. They're just as likely to consider the Space Marine roster too.

I think the results would look a lot different, and I think there would be other things looked at, but I don't think its a bad place to look as a suggestion for quick fixes to issues with the current ruleset.

The smartest thing a new BBRC could do is almost nothing... making very small changes one at a time rather than a slew of changes across the board. As it stands, there's little reason to create a new BBRC - it comes down to "who will people listen to?".. and once we figure that out, the method they use for deciding on what rosters or rules are added/changed/removed is pretty much up to them.

[Darkson]

The BBRC members that spoke about it weren't interested in narrowing the tiers, it's counter to the game's design and is plasmoid's baby and no-one else's. That some ex-BBRC having given suggestions on narrowing the tiers does not mean they support it.

[Shteve0]

Edit: this post wasn't very well expressed.

[Shteve0]

Essentially, I'm sure plasmoid is proud of his rules, and no doubt deservedly so. As house rules go I've seen a lot worse. He'll be proud of the work he did gathering data for the BBRC, and with coming up with a brettonian roster that some people like, which is fine. I think it's a shame he's then felt the need to exaggagerate the legitimacy of his house rules rather than let them stand on their own merit.

By all means back him, play his house rules, buy whatever version of the game you like, it's really none of my business - but mate, claims it has a statistical basis, that narrow tiers is a design goal or that it's what the BBRC would 'probably' have done... those things are either demonstrably untrue or or, at best, pure guesswork.

New coaches coming on here are unlikely to realise that CRP and CRP+ are two absolutely unrelated constructs developed by two completely different parties for two different purposes. One is official, the other is not. In my view, that point needs to be expressed.

[sann0638]

In the meantime, http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 81&t=41380.

[SBG]

viewtopic.php?f=81&t=40363&p=732447#p732414

Amen. +1000. Express it the way you like, but this is exactly what I mean/think.

Fred

[VoodooMike]

New coaches coming on here are unlikely to realise that CRP and CRP+ are two absolutely unrelated constructs developed by two completely different parties for two different purposes. One is official, the other is not. In my view, that point needs to be expressed.

Worse, I suspect that uninvested developers won't be able to tell the difference and may end up choosing to implement them in their software offerings because they think they're well thought of by the majority of long-time players.

In the meantime, viewtopic.php?f=81&t=41380.

Same as it ever was. The NAF is, once again, avoiding the important decisions and instead shoving them off onto tournament directors, who can enforce CRP if they feel like it, or totally marginalize the NAF if they feel like it, deciding, collectively, who will chart BB's course for the future. I think it's a very weak stance to take, but it's NAF's call, not mine. It's why we pay them the big bucks, after all!

[sann0638]

No, there is one tournament director who makes the decisions. Just in case you have misunderstood.

[plasmoid]

Hi Mike

Worse, I suspect that uninvested developers won't be able to tell the difference and may end up choosing to implement them in their software offerings because they think they're well thought of by the majority of long-time players.

Then again, before doing so I'd imagine that Cyanide would have asked me, in which case I'd have said that for the purpose of selling their game, it would not be a good idea to implement NTBB or CRP+

Cheers
Martin

[harvestmouse]

Hi Mike

Worse, I suspect that uninvested developers won't be able to tell the difference and may end up choosing to implement them in their software offerings because they think they're well thought of by the majority of long-time players.

Then again, before doing so I'd imagine that Cyanide would have asked me, in which case I'd have said that for the purpose of selling their game, it would not be a good idea to implement NTBB or CRP+

Cheers
Martin

Wow, this is immensely intriguing. So reading between the lines there. Cyanide appear to be using various bits of your (plasmoid's) work for an official product, without even approaching you.

Somebody must be advising them on this.

[plasmoid]

That's one way of reading it..

[harvestmouse]

Ahhh so you're not out and out denying they approached you, and if they have, you wouldn't be able to say anything anyway.

[TalonBay]

Ahhh so you're not out and out denying they approached you, and if they have, you wouldn't be able to say anything anyway.

Or he's saying that he can't officially say anything about conversations but they had been in touch and he's told us the response he gave, but he can't actually tell us that's what happened.