Do Dwarves even need a big guy?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:32 pm

DL ... not say they HAVE to be removed.

Just saying I don't think the team needs them.

Removing Ogres from Dwarves is just because I want to see more Deathrollers .... has zero to do with Balance.

Same thing for taking them away from stunty teams ... not a balance thing... its just how I'd like to see the teams.

So you misunderstood ... I have no proof of anything ... its just what I personally would like to see.

Galak

Agentrock · Post by **Agentrock** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:37 pm

Are there experimental rules for BG Death Rollers anywhere?

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:44 pm

Oh, ok. I see what you mean. Sorry.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:25 pm

Do Dwarves need a big guy? Not really, but then again, no team really needs a big guy. A 5 Strength hitter usually helps a lot, but he isn't necessary to win a game.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:15 pm

Agentrock wrote:I'd hate to see what else the league allowed on the other teams if WEs got 6 Treemen availability...

u dont get my point.

allow them 100 treemen, tehy cant afford them anyways.

most WE teams are representet by 9 linemen.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:50 am

GalakStarscraper wrote: Removing Ogres from Dwarves is just because I want to see more Deathrollers .... has zero to do with Balance.

But those two are separate issues - with the new SW rules you're going to see more Deathrollers anyhow!

The fact is that the deathroller, as it breaks up easily, is not as great an asset as could be thought from the statline.
Another fact is that the ogre patches up a part of the dwarf team that they are lacking - namely high ST.

You are taking something away from the team if you take away the ogres. As dwarves haven't been the ultimately best team around - haven't seen many cries of them being broken - I think you should have very solid justifications before removing the strength from a supposedly strength team.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:00 am

Taking the Ogre away from the Dwarves removes zero of their strength. A bunch of Longbeards with Guard and Mighty Blow can mow through anything.

-Balrog

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:11 am

Balrog wrote:Taking the Ogre away from the Dwarves removes zero of their strength. A bunch of Longbeards with Guard and Mighty Blow can mow through anything.

-Balrog

I really hate it when I see people say that. "A bunch" is how many? 3 or 4? 3 or 4 linemen with 2 skills each takes a while to build up, especially when they gotta do it with casualties, meanwhile an orc team can plop down an ogre next to a couple of strength 4 black orcs in the first match!
Might as well say that orcs don't need big guys because they can develop black orcs with block and piling on.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:19 am

Yeah, have you ever had an Ogre assisted by 4 black orcs move into the corner of your cage, easily blocking away the LB there, and then stand next to your ball carrier, with all your nice Str3 Ag2 Longbeards, and your slayers tied up by other (faster) orcs so you can't get any assists, even if they have guard?

When that happens, I rather like to have my own Ogre ready to Block/Blitz the bastard, or a Black Orc out of the way...

Same when there's a long line of orcs in front of you, while you don't have the speed to move around them; An Ogre getting a 2die blitz, where your Longbeards can only do that by moving into contact, where they will be blocked next turn (on 2Die blocks) is VERY useful then.

Dwarfs are meant to be a Strength team, give them some of that strength; they have sacrificed enough (movement; agility) for it!

R

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:02 am

Got to agree with Balrog here. In my experience an Ogre on a Dwarf team is just added luxury and tends to just stand around waiting for the end of turn block.

Although ST 4 Black Orcs are useful, the fact that they and Orc lineman develop slower, have less skills means Dwarves can over power Orcs. Although Dwarves have lower movement, Thick Skull does mean that they will tend to stay on the pitch.

I find that the hardest line to crack is a Dwarf line of Guard and Stand Firm. Having played against a CD team with a full compliment of Guard and Stand Firm (OK 2 of the Blockers don't have Stand Firm), I can assure you that it is very difficult to bust open.

If you remove an Ogre from a Dwarf team, does it degrade it - yes a bit but not a lot. I too feel that the Ogre can be removed from the roster and the team will still be hard to beat.

Dave

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:07 am

I've seen my Guard line of Longbeards cracked up by an Ogre plus some Black Orcs Dozens of times. Str3 Guards are still very easily evaded, and thus still blocked with 2 dice

R

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:51 am

Dark Lord wrote:
Balrog wrote:Taking the Ogre away from the Dwarfs removes zero of their strength. A bunch of Longbeards with Guard and Mighty Blow can mow through anything.

-Balrog
I really hate it when I see people say that. "A bunch" is how many? 3 or 4? 3 or 4 linemen with 2 skills each takes a while to build up, especially when they gotta do it with casualties, meanwhile an orc team can plop down an ogre next to a couple of strength 4 black orcs in the first match!
Might as well say that orcs don't need big guys because they can develop black orcs with block and piling on.

I will agree with that. Orcs do not need big guys. I would take away the oger for them anyway, just to keep it with the fluff. Orcs and trolls hang out together in the warhammer world. Ogers live (for the most part) in the empire, so they should be on the human team. I would however, let any team freeboot an oger, as they commonly work as mercenary's

Sped 2500 · Post by **Sped 2500** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:36 pm

Ok...in my precious little posting this is my first time chiming in on a debate...so here we go.

I have had 0 experience playing against dwarves in my bloodbowl career. So I can't say with a very accurate opinion that they should or should not have a big guy. However it always irked me that the Orc team should have access to 4 st 4 players AND a big guy, AND alot more agility. The dwarves get compensated early with alot of skills and cheap rerolls. However once everyone in the league gets block a little later on, they are going have lost alot of their advantage. Like I said I haven't seen this happen so I can't say for sure. However dwarves are going to be the next team I start on after Ogres and my snotlings...

Oh! and on the matter of Woodelves...I played woodelves as my very first team in my very first league, and went undefeated for 5 games despite losing LOTS of players. Once I finally did buy a treeman (I had to paint one of the store where I worked at anyway so I might as well have) I did find it to be a great help. Not necessarily in winning but in adding survivability. The treeman took the place of one of my inexpereinced lineelves, and not only drew attention away from many of my better players, but very often put a hurt on the more dangerous foes of the other team.

Sam

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:47 pm

Sam, you are right about the wood elves beeing able to compete.

But i think nobody has to worry about a playing a wood elf team with an outmaxed roster of players... they keep you buissy with replacing linemen let alone war dancers, before you can even think about luxury like ReRolls or Big Guys.

Seriously Speaking, if it was up to me I would demmand the Wood Elf team to have:

0-2 Treeman Blocker (no Big Guy RC = Rerolls Allowed), rest stays the same.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:53 pm

I do have alot of experiance going against toughened Dwarves. Except for the loss of bonus mvp's and standfirm becoming a trait, dwarves havent lost anything in the current ruleset. Unless those changes have altered dwarves considerably, then even down the line dwarves dont NEED big guys, they may really want them but they dont need them.