The LRB handicap table just isn't going to work

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:27 am

I don't/didn't like the bonus MVPs as part of the handicap system. A lower rated team shouldn't get freebies for just turning up, losing, and hoping they don't suffer too many SIs. So the 150 TR team gets a win and picks up the SPPs that the win entails, while the 100TR losing team gets bonus MVPs just for showing up? Sod that, that was a whole big problem with 3e IMO. SPPs? EARN THEM!!!!

Q: "So why should I bother playing a more experienced coach/team if I'm just going to lose without being rewarded for just turning up?"

A: "To have some fun, learn, and pick up some experience (and hopefully some cash and SPPs along the way)...DUFUS!"

Naah, don't mean to come across too blunt, but I've seen the abuse before. Rookie Orc team against a 200+ Elf team..just there for the bonus MVPs and some cash...lose 6-0 or something with no SIs...hey..result!

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:32 am

well thats a lot less of a problem now that cards are gone. i used to do that very thing...play a game i knew i'd lose, take all random events, get a bucketload of $$, and mvps. was especially a great idea when i was starting a new undead team...we all have regen!

anyway i think without the cards that won't be as much of an issue.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:44 am

littlemute wrote:I know a lot of you play BB online, but I have a real league with real live players that have to drive to the gaming hall or set up matches on saturday and try to get more players interested with some advertising and just having the game visible.

Incidently, (and I'm trying not to take that out of context), that doesn't come across too well. A lot ( the majority ) of us do indeed play in tabletop leagues, and online BB is an addition to our normal BB playing.
Of course there's some amongst that can only play online through circumstance, but a "real" league with "real live players"...c'mon...who do you think you're addressing here? This really isn't an 'online' gaming community here....mainly just "real" players who play in real live leagues that take advantage of the online tools available to play other coaches that they wouldn't normally be able to.

danwantsin2 · Post by **danwantsin2** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:13 am

Hi all,

Couple of relatively quick points.

Firstly - Nobody just learning to play the game will turn up week after week if every time they play they get a schellacking! (a sore dot form the kicking it got). That just isn't FUN (unless of course some kind of sadomasochism is involved but that's a totally different topic). People will return if they are competitive, win, lose or draw. Getting beaten by dice rolls is a fact of life.

Secondly - Everybody who uses this does so because they have a passion that they wish to share with others and having new people discover the world of Blood Bowl is an excellent way to show their knowledge. So new players/collectors/enthusiasts should be openly encouraged.

Cheers,

Dan.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:45 am

A simple solution if you believe TRs will be too different - get the current players to start a new team - ie run 2 teams. This will allow the new players a chance to catch up. The new teams can be kept on or disbanded when they have played a few games to get the newcomers up-to-speed.

Dave

Oh - I agree - no extra MVPs on TR handicap differences.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:08 pm

Personally, I think this is rightly a commissioner's issue. As several people have already pointed out, a well-balanced league will give everyone an equal chance to start out with. There are some things you should keep in mind, though:

1) Starting teams will lose games. You have to expect this, especially against experienced teams.
2) Starting coaches will lose games. This isn't exactly the same as the first, although it sounds similar.

Anyone who comes into an existing league as a brand new coach/team should not be preparing to win their first games. It's a learning process, and part of that is seeing what experienced coaches can do with experienced teams. You can't get a defeatist attitude about it, though, or you'll never advance past that point.

Secondly, the commissioner should be organizing the league to ensure one team (or group of teams) doesn't run away with the league. In my league, I limit the number of games per week AND the number of games per season. I try to keep the average at about 1 - 1.5 games per week, to ensure that even the coaches who have the least free time can be competitive.

Milo

Pitch Dark · Post by **Pitch Dark** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:30 pm

My only objection to the handicap table is that some of the results are pretty much useless. Like Sponsorship Deal. I think that when your in a position to make a role on the handicap-table, your really need to get something out of it. Also, it adds to the fun knowing that the underdog might just stand a chance, with a little help that is. It dosent have to be stuff like extra mvps or permanent skills, just small stuff but that actually matters in the game.

So heres my 50euro:
1. Handicap results that affect the game, not money afterwards, or something such. (while News Feature for example is very nice to get, i dont think the handicap table should be used for any longterm improvements, just improvements for the game at hand).
2. Handicap results that affect the game, not annoying things like Sponsorship Deal, or almost useless Team Anthem etc. Trying to make the table a little bit more balanced so that all results are atleast a little useful.

TeLef0n0 · Post by **TeLef0n0** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 9:22 pm

Just my 2 cents...

In my league (10 coaches) we play a scheduled programme, where we all play the same amount of games. We do however already have TR-differences of around 30. We like to keep all games exciting, meaning that everyone should have a slight chance of winning a game, also without the stronger teams having a Very Bad day (dicerolls). We are also oldscool, so we use the old Handicap table from Deathzone and the Cards, because we find them more fun. And fun is the key word here, that is also why we want to give each coach a feeling, that he can win against a stronger team. It is in our opinion more fun if U dont get beaten up ALL them time, and always have to rely on the opponent to have bad luck. Anyway, new players are needed from time to time in the local leagues everywhere, and it isnt easy attracting new blood, if we tell ppl to leave if they cant be fanatics from the beginning like the rest of us.

So heres my suggestion (and how we play our league)

Use old handicap table from Deathzone, but reverse the table so U get MVPs before cards. That way U dont have to rely so much on random rolls on a table, but U can build Ur team more the way U like it. I know, that it isnt particularly popular around here with the cards and MVPs, but We dont see it as a problem in our league, sine teams rarely (never happened yet) get more than 1 extra MVP and 1 extra Card. Besides, if U like it better, U can choose only to use this extra MVP-idea in the startup of a league, to boost teams unlucky in the beginning, so it can be more liberal and competitive later on.

We also halve the TR-diff on handicap-table, when teams over 175 play each other, that way the problem with 200 - 250 teams playing eachother and getting cheesy MVPs wont be there anymore

My first post on this forum, sorry for its lenght...

Pitch Dark · Post by **Pitch Dark** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 10:20 pm

I think that the main reason for discontinuing with the cards where production-issues. Atleast so ive read somewhere.

So i dont think reinstating cards is a plausible solution.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:43 pm

danwantsin2 wrote: Firstly - Nobody just learning to play the game will turn up week after week if every time they play they get a schellacking! (a sore dot form the kicking it got). That just isn't FUN (unless of course some kind of sadomasochism is involved but that's a totally different topic). People will return if they are competitive, win, lose or draw. Getting beaten by dice rolls is a fact of life.

Actually, if you can handle losing in a mature manner, people will turn up week after week. When I first started playing 40k and Necromunda I got beaten every time, but I learnt from my mmistakes, asked experienced players questions on tactics and rules, and watched other people playing. After a few weeks of this I could hold my own (and beat the leading Necro gang, who had a 400 Gang rating better than mine

)

danwantsin2 · Post by **danwantsin2** » Thu Apr 17, 2003 12:40 am

Hi all,

As I said losing is fine, getting a pasting time after time endears itself to no one. Personally I find being competitive is god regardless of the match's outcome.

Cheers,

Dan.

BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:06 pm

I think I'm with Darkson on this one. When I start a game like this, I expect to lose my first few games. In fact, I still lose a lot. Winning is not the whole point when I play this kind of game. True, if I lost ALL the time, I'd get sick of it and never play it again. At the same time, I don't believe in codeling newbies. Now, in this case, I would do as several people mentioned here, and have the newbies play themselves. This gives them a good chance of winning, experience playing, and builds up their teams.

Chris

Kamikaze Rudy · Post by **Kamikaze Rudy** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 5:38 pm

I recently joined a league where most of the teams enjoyed a 4-13 game head start over my team. In my sixth game or so, I was lucky enough to play the defending league Champion High Elf team, played by a very good coach. He was about 165 points higher than me in Team Rating, and averaging about 4 TD's a game. I came away with a 1-0 loss and while upset, I understand that his team was much better than mine and that the handicaps I rolled actually helped to keep me in the game. I have no problems with the table as it is now. It's not overpowering and, yes, there are some pretty crappy rolls. But the purpose of the table isn't to let my -160TR win, it is to give me a little nudge and hope that my coaching can overcome my inflated opponents.

BTW, my handicaps were:

Greased Shoes (his dauntless, strip ball, block, dodge, leap dragon warrior was tied up for 7 turns with my Chaos Dwarfs)

I am the Greatest (didn't really matter because it was a lineman and his other blitzer. I badly hurt that blitzer in the 3rd turn of the game.)

Palmed Coin (I took the ball and plodded down the field for 7 turns. My only mistake being that I hesitated dodging out a Bull Centaur with a reroll to score and the next turn he got to me)

Bad Press (Took him from a 17FF down to a 9, which matched my FF)

And I chose Under Scrutiny ( I wanted to foul his important guys, and didn't want him to foul back. I didn't plan on fouling a lot in the game, just when I got his Blitzers on the ground. I saw this Handicap used against him in the game before I played him. He likes to foul, it's the only way his team scores casualties.

My point being, the handicap table does work, but if you are looking for it to win games for you, look somewhere else. It should only give you a little boost. Your coaching is still gonna have to win the game in the end.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 5:42 pm

Very recently a 235 TR Orc team lost to a 120 ish Amazon team by the score of 1-0. The handicaps certainly played a large role.

littlemute · Post by **littlemute** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 4:36 pm

BlanchPrez wrote: I always figured that would happen, but with the rules in the LRB, if refuse a challenge, you've lost the match 0-2. No star player points, no money, no team advancement. Not to mention, no game, and no fun.

Ok, that's a ridiculously terrible rule. Example:A chaos team has lost 4 games but has 14 blood thirsty players. The Skaven come off a rough week of games and have seven players for their next game and you're saying that the chaos coach can just challenge the Skaven team and then win 2-0 when the challenge is refused? The whole idea of the open league format is that coaches play who they want to play, when they want to until a tournament starts. They have a rough game, they get with another player around the same rank and duke it out. The two dead hard teams in the league eventually can't find as many willing coaches and then go head to head and one usually gets knocked down a few pegs. Your also dealing with people that have jobs, girlfriends, wives, kids, sick grandmothers, drug addictions, Warcraft 3 addictions, etc. and they don't always want to or can't show up for a week or two. Just because some coach says they want to play a team that they know won't show up so then they win 2-0 gives a level of beardiness I wouldn't want my league complaining about!!

We play that if a coach is challenged by another coach two weeks in a row and no game takes place they write up an official challenge submitted to the league commisioner, usually with a bribe of food or beverages, and the commish usually 'persuades' the dodging team to play the challenger or fines them (usually with more food and beverages).

All of it is moot because when a tournament starts, it's single elimination. If you don't play your opponent, you don't advance.

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The LRB handicap table just isn't going to work

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