Do Dwarves even need a big guy?

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:09 pm

Galak: Chaos, Orcs, Humans, Goblins, Halfings, Norse, and Dwarves are all better for having a 5 strength player with Mighty Blow on the roster. Are you really saying that the Bonehead negatrait alone keeps him from making these rosters significantly better?

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:25 pm

Are you really saying that the Bonehead negatrait alone keeps him from making these rosters significantly better?

I think what he and the rest of us who agree are saying is that he makes the rosters hit harder, which isnt necessarily better. I ran a successful Orc team and am trying for the first time a Dwarf team, both of which did not use/will not use Ogres. We think these teams have room for Ogres, but do not need them and in some cases other big guys would make better sense.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:34 pm

ianwilliams wrote:
GalakStarscraper wrote:Now a DE team with a harpy isn't necessarily better than one without.
But a DE roster with a Harpy is better than a DE roster without a harpy. Just having the harpy available improves the DE roster.

Actually no it doesn't ... the negative equal the positives. DE teams in my league have done as much damage to themselves with the player as they have to opponents. Including things like lost Blitz attempts.

And Skummy ... I said the Ogre is clearly the better of the Big Guy choices since Bonehead doesn't fully offset his benefit. As a result I said several times, I don't care if you want to remove him from all but the 4 to 5 rosters I listed.

And Thrads/Snots ... I'm against the player A replaces Player B. My general experience is that seems to be beyond a lot of coaches to understand and grasp properly. IE it sounds simple, but its one of those changes that generates 1,000+ newbie questions.

Galak

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:54 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:And Thrads/Snots ... I'm against the player A replaces Player B. My general experience is that seems to be beyond a lot of coaches to understand and grasp properly. IE it sounds simple, but its one of those changes that generates 1,000+ newbie questions.

Galak

We get those anyway. Heck, I even ask them once in a while. I don't think it would be misunderstood at all. Just put it at the beginning of the Big Guy section stating that they take the place of one of the team's Blitzers/Wardancer/Black Orcs/Bull Centaurs/Saurus... whatever the strongest player is. Maybe a list of teams and position lost would be required since the teams strongest player can be a bit subjective, especially in the case of the Orc roster for example.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:01 pm

Sorry Snots ... Bleh ...

Galak

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:26 pm

Sorry Galak, but I've seen no evidence that Bonehead or Really Stupid makes a coach think twice about adding the player to their roster. The 5 strength and the Mighty Blow are just too good of a tradeoff.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:41 pm

Skummy wrote:Sorry Galak, but I've seen no evidence that Bonehead or Really Stupid makes a coach think twice about adding the player to their roster. The 5 strength and the Mighty Blow are just too good of a tradeoff.

Argh ... you are mixing my arguments. I've NEVER said that Bonehead was something that made coaches think twice. Really Stupid I have seen a coach think twice about.

Again .. I'm repeat. I don't really consider Bonehead a nega-trait compared to the others ... as such I AGREE!!!! that Ogres should be removed from several rosters. I do not fear Trolls at all ... pretty sure I'm not afraid of the Nurgle Beast since it lost Tentacles either.

Galak

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:23 pm

Perhaps we have come back to the point that Bonehead is not a negative enough trait.

All of the other negatraits would make me think hard about adding a big guy to the team but adding an Ogre is usually a no brainer.

Maybe if this trait were worse then we would not see so many Ogre's taken as an automatic choice.

I assume this is part of what the negatraits are intended to do, make the coach think twice about whether they want to have a big guy at all and whether they want to field him on all drives.

Dark Lord (retired) · Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:11 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:Argh ... you are mixing my arguments. I've NEVER said that Bonehead was something that made coaches think twice. Really Stupid I have seen a coach think twice about.

Again .. I'm repeat. I don't really consider Bonehead a nega-trait compared to the others ... as such I AGREE!!!! that Ogres should be removed from several rosters. I do not fear Trolls at all ... pretty sure I'm not afraid of the Nurgle Beast since it lost Tentacles either.

Galak

What I don't get are the people with your point of view that want the ogre off the dwarf roster more than the orc roster.
Orcs absolutely do not need ogres! Especially when you consider the reasons people say dwarfs don't need them.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:14 pm

As a Norse coach I agree the sensible option for me would be to take an Ogre every time.

I just take the mino for the fun

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:25 pm

Dark Lord wrote:What I don't get are the people with your point of view that want the ogre off the dwarf roster more than the orc roster.
Orcs absolutely do not need ogres! Especially when you consider the reasons people say dwarfs don't need them.

Because in my league we've already allowed the Dwarf team to have a Deathroller for 40k as a secret weapon. I've said this before ... its not like I want the Ogre yanked from them without compensation. And the fluff sure as heck doesn't support Ogres on Dwarf teams

As for Ogres for Orc teams. The Fluff supports this more. As such I don't have an immediate bad reaction fluff wise to the Ogre-Orc tie (although the fluff (BB/WFB) really supports Ogres mainly on Chaos and Human teams most of all). However, again I have no problem with the Orcs losing the Ogre at all.

I'm pushing heavily for removal from Halfling, Goblin, and Dwarf based on Fluff and because they make the Stunty teams too good (I'm undefeated with my TR 100 tournament Halfling team so far), and from the Dwarf team because I'd rather see them roll a Deathroller onto the pitch.

Galak

Dark Lord (retired) · Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:39 pm

Well I don't think fluff is sensible reason to do anything.
What is the Blood Bowl fluff? I mean we don't use Warhammer fluff...or do we? Oh that's right...only when we need to.

The deathroller thing doesn't sit well with me. It's an ok solution but I think it still robs the dwarves of an option. I mean the deathroller doesn't gain star player points and ogres do. The deathroller really only plays one half of the game and every other big guy is there for the whole game. The deathroller isn't very good at anything. Mine always craps out on BOTH DOWN results and if not the ref removes it.
Add to that the fact that other dwarf secret weapons suck worse than the deathroller and you have a big fluff hole! Uh oh!

Aren't dwarf teams supposed to have the coolest secret weapons?

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:43 pm

Dark Lord wrote: The deathroller really only plays one half of the game and every other big guy is there for the whole game.

(excepting Treemen)

Dark Lord (retired) · Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:52 pm

Galak said they are looking at an on the pitch version of Take Root.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu May 01, 2003 12:02 am

Dark Lord wrote:Galak said they are looking at an on the pitch version of Take Root.

Yeah which takes the player out of the game on average even MORE than the current Take Root until he gets some skills.

IE I don't think you get what I am saying. I'm saying Bonehead isn't very negative, so I want to see Bonehead players limited to only a very few teams. The other nega-traits I'm fine with. I'm being to fell like Pariah here ... is anyone actually reading what I'm posting before they answer.

Galak