Do Dwarves even need a big guy?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu May 01, 2003 4:39 pm

reducing the ogre availability will make more variety

and like galak said its almost a no brainer to take an ogre but wild animal is more of a coaches choice some do some don't take them

same with treemen on wood elf teams some take them some don't

making the other big guys better will just mean more are taken and reduce the variety

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu May 01, 2003 4:53 pm

Ok.

Current Orc Team Version

Ogre or Troll ? Ogre, Troll sux.
Variety = 0

Grumbledook Orc Team Version

Troll.
Variety = 0

Toby Orc Team Version

Ogre or Troll ?
Ogre = Blocker (5/5/2/9 Mighty Blow, TTM, Big Guy, Thick Skull, Bone Head) General & Strength
Troll = Thrower (5/5/2/9 Mighty Blow, TTM&AH, Big Guy, Regeneration, Bone Head) General & Passing
Variety = 50%

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu May 01, 2003 4:58 pm

Toby wrote:
Problem with the Big Guys is:

A. No Team Rerolls allowed
b. Handicap Racial Characteristic
C. No starting Block Skill

I don't have a problem with any of those things.

and Ian is right...
Removing Ogres from the Halfling, Goblin and Orc rosters solves the problem in one very quick and easy step.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:08 pm

Toby that sucks, i was taking about variety across the whole spectrum of teams not just the orc team

Making the troll and ogre the same stats doesn't make more varitey, all the other teams and the orc still will take the ogre, whats that acheive.

Giving the troll passing skill access is pointless, they can only really use pass and thats for ttm, the other skills are for passing the ball and who is going to use their st5 ag2 player for that when they could just hit people instead.

I can't see anyone taking that troll instead of the ogre now and it achieves, well not a lot.

In fact you will find with a single double roll on the ogre you can take pass, making him then better for ttm cause he doesn't have always hungry and he also has str skill access to make him useful for hitting, which is the main idea behind taking a big guy anyway as most teams can't even use ttm.

Currently when i play orcs i take the troll cause its slighty cheaper and has regen and i use him to get pounded on, your change would make me take the ogre cause i wouldn't be able to take str skills with the troll.

Then what about the chaos dwarfs, you just crippled the troll far worse by removing str skill access and giving him mega useless passing skills, when really stupid looks a far better propsistion, its not many turns that i don't have a chaos dwarf stood next to him or can't move a hobbo there before i take his action.

So how in your head did your changes make variety work?

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:11 pm

Thadrin: Please, let's take them off of the Norse roster as well.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:20 pm

Ogre Allied Teams List: Chaos, Dwarf, Goblin, Halfling, Human, Norse, Orc

Chaos:
Remove Ogre, there is still Minotaur or Troll
Dwarf:
Remove Ogre, add "The Deathroller" permanetly (peaked)
Goblin:
Make Troll better or equal choice if team plans to use TTM
Halfling:
Make Treeman better or equal choice if team plans to use TTM
Human:
Ogre stays
Norse:
Ogre stays
Orc:
Make Troll better or equal choice if team plans to use TTM

Skill Access
Ogre = General, Strength -> (Block, Piling On)
Troll = General, Passing -> (Block, Pass)

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:26 pm

Sorry one thing I must add:

IF "Strong Arm" was allowed for a Troll that had acces to Passing Skills, the situation would emphasise the Idea that is:

I want to use TTM, I need a Troll.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:43 pm

the fluff has always denoted that the ogre was for throwing team mates, morgs nick name is the ballista after all

trolls are stupid who stand there to hit things

orcs don't need a reliable one turning ttm option, and goblins and flings are meant to suck anyway

trolls and trees aren't meant to be agile, changing them to be so kinda defeats the whole idea of yours to give dwarfs a deathroller instead of an ogre

TTM should be a risk and it should be kept as one

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:44 pm

Doh Double post.

Skummy - I was just thinking of the TTM teams with that last post. I still want Ogres off the Norse.

I'm not gong to post my whole list AGAIN....

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu May 01, 2003 6:04 pm

Grumbledook wrote: the fluff has always denoted that the ogre was for throwing team mates, morgs nick name is the ballista after all

I did not suggest to remove TTM from Ogres.

Grumbledook wrote: trolls are stupid who stand there to hit things

You can still do this by picking the Block skill prior to the pass skill if you want to.

Grumbledook wrote:orcs don't need a reliable one turning ttm option, and goblins and flings are meant to suck anyway

Currently, picking an Ogre is the better TTM Option for a Orc team. Goblins and Halflings still suck if they get thrown by a troll.

Grumbledook wrote:trolls and trees aren't meant to be agile, changing them to be so kinda defeats the whole idea of yours to give dwarfs a deathroller instead of an ogre

AG 2 is not exactly agile. And if strategy gaming aspects should be more important than "fluff" which is different for every person. Most people I know playing Blood Bowl did not even know Warhammer before.

Thadrin:
it is not ME having a problem with that, it is the BIG GUYS that have the problem, and its your task as a coach to avoid/overcome those problems. Is that now perfectly worded enough for you ?

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu May 01, 2003 6:08 pm

Toby - AH. Ok...reread your post and see what you're trying to get at (it reads a little ambiguaously in English...).

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Thu May 01, 2003 6:15 pm

I think removing Ogre access from some of the teams is a step in the right direction.

What it does not solve is the fact that for teams that still have access to the Ogre buying one is still a no-brainer.

I agree that Big Guys are supposed to be interesting and have a tangible effecty on the game but the fluff seems to indicate that they are fairly rare and not on all teams.

Having them as 'automatic' choices on all teams devalues their impact as they become 'just another player'.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu May 01, 2003 6:17 pm

Thadrin wrote:Toby - AH. Ok...reread your post and see what you're trying to get at (it reads a little ambiguaously in English...).

thank you.
(honestly)

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu May 01, 2003 6:36 pm

i was talking about the blood bowl fluff not warhammer, i have never played warhammer

and when i said the fluff denotes the ogres are more the classic ttm monster that was against you saying "i want ttm i should get a troll" comment, i wasn't suggesting you said to remove ttm from the ogre

taking the str skills away from the troll hurts them as the hitting machine loads, sure they can take block before the passing skills, but its harder to get guard break tackle and piling on

what would make more sense is to give the passing to the ogres and leave the troll as it is but thats just as silly imho