Team Power Balance Discussion

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Thu May 08, 2003 2:32 pm

Waht did I miss??

The BB2003booklet.pdf contians far more valuable Information, tips & tricks on how to run a exiting Tournament that should be integrated in LRB.

So you think 2 documents should be 1 -> improvement!?

I can't see your Problem with having a Tournament Section and a Seperate LEagues Section.

In fact thats how I think it should be, and It is the way It is RIGHT NOW in LRB 2.0

Well, if it is RIGHT as it is, why did you want to change it?

And by the way your attitude of completely ignoring what the other person is trying to tell you is kinda offending.

1) you ignored many opinions on this board even when they tried to 'help' you and your ideas and although you wanted these people to discuss your ideas.

2) This is indeed offending!

Sputnik

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu May 08, 2003 3:18 pm

No, its simply hip to be Anti - Toby, regardless of what I say.

Some of the Stuff in the BB Tourney Rules Pack should be part of the adequate LRB Section. Period. Nothing to discuss.
It would be an improvement.

There is nothing wrong with expanding the Tips on Tournaments Section.

thx gg no re.

lawquoter · Post by **lawquoter** » Thu May 08, 2003 3:33 pm

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu May 08, 2003 4:05 pm

Thadrin wrote:(Official LRB tournament rules? )

I couldn't agree more.

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu May 08, 2003 5:17 pm

Toby wrote: Some of the Stuff in the BB Tourney Rules Pack should be part of the adequate LRB Section. Period. Nothing to discuss.
It would be an improvement.

No it wouldn't. You would get stupid little power gamers bitching at people who go to the trouble of organising a tournament saying "but you can't do this, look it says so right here

."

People should have full freedom to run tournaments how THEY want. Not how the rulebook says.

Toby wrote: There is nothing wrong with expanding the Tips on Tournaments Section.

Apart from the fact that what works for one tournament won't for another, dependent on a large number of variables - team types, stars or not, team numbers...

This is the province of the NAF, not the LRB.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu May 08, 2003 5:22 pm

I really don't see a problem with "vanilla" tournament guidelines, as long as they make it clear that the organizer has the final word on changing or customizing. This would bring it in line with the league guidelines, and I've not heard any complaints about those.

From my experience at the GT in Baltimore, having some basic rules out there would be a great help. The tournament organizers didn't get the rules to us in advance, and didn't know what they would be running until 30 minutes before the start of the tournament.

BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Thu May 08, 2003 5:48 pm

Skummy wrote:I really don't see a problem with "vanilla" tournament guidelines, as long as they make it clear that the organizer has the final word on changing or customizing. This would bring it in line with the league guidelines, and I've not heard any complaints about those.

I agree, it would be nice for some guidelines in the LRB on tournies. In fact, the NAF has a document in their download sections called "How to Run a Succesful Tourniment" or something to that effect that has just the kind of guidelines I'm thinking of. I just don't like the idea of "official" tourniment rules, because you'll end up with what Thadrin mentioned above.

Chris

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu May 08, 2003 7:35 pm

Toby wrote:I do not suggest a section that says:
"If you play a Tournament and do not stick exactly to the following rules you will be killed." I think, a section, that gives you tips & tools how to balance the chances for diffrent races is way more useful than to explanain the schedule you should use.

I love u2

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu May 08, 2003 8:42 pm

Fair enough (missed that one...skim reading at work).

I still say its a danger. The whiny little power gamers WILL be there.

Tournament guidelines and such should be left out of all official stuff, and should run through the NAF which is nice and unofficial (not to mention run by real coaches, not Fanatic or GW).

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Thu May 08, 2003 9:21 pm

I think the problem is that there is already a section in the rule book for tournaments and a seperate section for league play.

The problem is that I don't know of any test leagues using the league rules and I haven't seen any leagues use the league rules.

If they are saying "No, we can't seperate the two." then maybe they should declare what the rules in the book are for and why they are already seperated into 2 sets of broken rules.

christer · Post by **christer** » Thu May 08, 2003 9:41 pm

You know.. I find it sad to see how so many people jump on every little thing Toby says. I may not totally agree with what he's saying but he does have a valid point.

If Blood Bowl were to pop up as a commercial online game, they couldn't possibly follow all aspects of the LRB. For instance.. The "Blood Bowl Leagues" section is something that is.. well.. not quite thought out. Sure, it holds rules on star player points and ageing ("Hey, can you drop more than 2 points in a single stat?"). But it also implies that you can transfer money and players between teams (ie, read the "Starting the League" section).

In my opinion, these things would totally not work in a large league (For reference, FUMBBL doesn't allow money or player transfers and probably won't anytime soon) as they pretty much undermine the point of the new winnings table and ageing. "Feeder" teams would pop up constantly in order to provide teams with replacement players and extra gold.

As far as I see it, Toby wants to have specific rulesets that works for long-term leagues and "professional" tournaments that would work in an online environment. The thing is, any league must decide on how to interprete the rules and decide on how to handle various things that pop up that aren't covered or obvious by reading the rules. This is where I disagree with Toby though. In my opinion, there is no need for the LRB to hold this information at all. I wouldn't mind if all league and tournament specific rules were removed and have the LRB only cover the rules regarding player development and whatnot. If not remove it completely, the parts about challenges and money transfer could go into a "really optional section" where you could have it say "This is _one_ way to run a league".

Personally, I have never played using only the basic rules. I've also never seen anyone else do that. So I will again agree with Toby (and others that have said the same thing) regarding the need of a LRB restructuring. And again, the way I see it this is what Toby has been getting at for quite some time.

-- Christer

Dark Lord (retired) · Thu May 08, 2003 10:00 pm

Yes you are exactly right.
Like I said, the fact that there already is seperation between tournament rules and league rules in the book (and these are possibly the most broken and confusing sections respectively) just shows how stubborn and closed minded some factions are being on this subject.
Are the rules in the book suitable for tournament play? No. Why are the major cups in the tournament section? Are these meant for league play? If so, why are they so "Monty Haul"?

BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Thu May 08, 2003 10:17 pm

Okay, you are correct, some of us have been jumping all over Toby (and I include myself in that statement).

That said, I still disagree with some (not, I said SOME), of his ideas. I also dont like the way he tends to present his ideas. The very nature of a fourm like this is for differing opinions to be expressed on a particular topic. You can't expect everyone to agree with your ideas, and it seems to me (and I admit, I may be wrong), that Toby expects everyone to do just this.

Now, THAT said, Toby has provided some of the more interesting topics for this board since I joined, at least before they ended up being reduced to "Toby is an idot" threads. So, I will endevour to make sure I am not so personal when discussing Toby's ideas from now on.

Chris

lawquoter · Post by **lawquoter** » Fri May 09, 2003 2:17 am

I don't remember the last time anyone has been personal when attempting to point out possible problematic areas with his ideas. If I'm not mistaken, because I have not been open to the possibilities of the vision of Toby, I should be lumped along with the other "clueless newbies" "table-top freaks" and I must be among the "cows" that he tries to speak to. I've seen many of the more knowledgeable folks on this board attempt to have a discussion with him, a little intellectual give and take, and it's strained. I'm sorry, I just don't think those who disagree with him jump on his back for the fun of it. I just don't think they take kindly to being to tactless rebuttals and then become subjected to the "anti-toby" moping that inevitiably is occurs. Perhaps I may not see the whole picture of what could be the future of blood bowl in the online gaming realm, but I tend to think the game as it currently is in the LRB (even as poorly organized as it may be) is a great game that needs little implementation of most of his suggestions. To that end, he's entitled to his views and it's never been personal on my part. But I don't think I'm alone for taking umbrage at being lumped with other perfectly good bovine because I don't agree with Toby that his ideas are always brilliant. Just my perspective, but I think he does bring a unique perspective to the board, which should be encouraged.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri May 09, 2003 3:35 am

I think the problem for all of us is we know already to much about this game. My approach however, is "how to I explain this cool game to someone who never had contact with somethink like this". Furthermore, the person has no other reference except the game's handbook. Nobody is there to explain.

First of all, there must be various SPLITS in the rules.

-Commisioning (Leagues, Tournaments)
-Team Management (Purchasing Players, Player Developement)
-Playing Bloodbowl (Blocking, Throwing)
-Blood Bowl Strategies (Offence, Defence)

Think of a Pen & Paper Role Playing game. There is the Dungeon Master (Comissioner) and there are Heroes (Coaches).

Some thoughts. Commisioning is only of interest for you if you are the poor guy who baught the game and who has to do all the work. Team Management only applies fully in leagues, because in Tournaments things like ageing and long term Injuries are disabled. Playing Bloodbowl is always the same with the exeption that maybe in leagues teams are more powerful than in Turnaments because of the number of games played and different team developement rules. Blood Bowl strategies may be of special interst for all the clueless newbies out there who don't know hot to set up their players. I think you understand what I'm trying to say.

"Official." Official is a reference point. Heck I am the last person to want to be forbidden to customize the rules !!! but there has to be a point a default, you can "reset" your house rules to.

"House Rules". These are rules you and some friends agree on or like better. i.e no fouling is allowed. I am not talking about an online game all the time, don't get me wrong. But In an online game there could not be any house rules at all. It has to provide the same environment for everybody who logs in. And thats 10.000 people, not 10, with whom you can agree on certain changes. If 100 people join a online league and accept that leagues rules, thats not a "house rule" if you know what i'm saying.