Why fouling and crowd cas should be given spps again

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu May 08, 2003 9:20 pm

do a search i am sure this topic was done to death a couple of months ago

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri May 09, 2003 12:33 am

yeah, and i'm all for arguing it again...some of you guys obviously didn't get it the first time around...

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri May 09, 2003 12:44 am

no i don't think you did huh wesley ;]

Snarlton Heston · Post by **Snarlton Heston** » Fri May 09, 2003 4:49 pm

1. It might have been "done to death" but not with me! I just wanted to state my opinion.

2. I agree with Wesley!

Snarlton Heston
-------------------

Your ass is CAS!

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri May 09, 2003 4:51 pm

well like i said search for the thread and read through all the points

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri May 09, 2003 6:30 pm

not much searching to be done...this is it!

Robotorz · Post by **Robotorz** » Fri May 09, 2003 6:51 pm

I started a Dwarf Team. First Game is not even finished and I already have 7 Cas against those Dark Elves. Ok that was luck but I realy dont think that Fouling should give SPP.
Fouling with a 40k Hobogoblin or a 40k Goblin? I do it all the time and they are sucessfull (on my Orc or Chaosdwarf Team), but I realy dont think that those teams are in need of a boost.
Especialy:
Black Orcs: 80k
Dwarf Lineman 70K
Goblin:40k

Who is going to foul? Yeah the 40k Goblin that you dont need anyway and who advances from Touchdowns anyway. So those poor slow teams dont get a boost but the other do. That means they dont get a boost from that. And I can live with Zombies not having skills around, when those wights, ghouls AND Pilling On Mummies score a lot of SPP. This gives you a point where you can attack Undead Cages without your Players dying too soon...

But I would stick with Darksons suggestion to award SPP for pushing into the Crowd (AV/Inj before and if not injured then Inj again). Or change it completly: make it only AV/Inj Roll with a +2 Mod to AV roll. Spp awarded. Why should Norse/Darkelve suffer from having Frenzy?

Just my 2 Cent.

Do you even callculate the fact in that you can get the reff and have a handicap Table Result that lets you foul as often as you want per Turn? Under this point of view this makes it even more hilarious...

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri May 09, 2003 7:10 pm

Robotorz wrote:I started a Dwarf Team. First Game is not even finished and I already have 7 Cas against those Dark Elves. Ok that was luck but I realy dont think that Fouling should give SPP.

That is a statistical anomaly, and that sort of stuff will happen whether spps are given for fouling cas or not. hardly a case to prove anything about anything.

Robotorz wrote:Fouling with a 40k Hobogoblin or a 40k Goblin? I do it all the time and they are sucessfull (on my Orc or Chaosdwarf Team), but I realy dont think that those teams are in need of a boost.

Clearly the cost of the player has nothing to do with the effectiveness with which they foul. their skills (or lack thereof) do that. Note however that a goblin has to roll doubles to take dirty player... which incidentally is something I've always had a problem with. If there was one type of bb player who had a natural affinity for dirty play, it would be a goblin. Why would they need doubles to take DP? But that's a different topic for a different thread.

Robotorz wrote:Who is going to foul? Yeah the 40k Goblin that you dont need anyway and who advances from Touchdowns anyway.

How many teams get goblins exactly? Besides, as I mentioned, goblins need doubles to take Dirty player.

Robotorz wrote:So those poor slow teams dont get a boost but the other do. That means they dont get a boost from that. And I can live with Zombies not having skills around, when those wights, ghouls AND Pilling On Mummies score a lot of SPP. This gives you a point where you can attack Undead Cages without your Players dying too soon...

I for one do not give pile on to mummies. They're already too slow, you can't be wasting half their game standing up...not to mention giving your opponent fouling opportunities. Regen or not, they're eventually going to fail.

None of which, btw, has to do with the zombies. Much less with black orcs or saurus, or whoever else is clearly not getting skills by throwing or scoring.

Robotorz wrote:But I would stick with Darksons suggestion to award SPP for pushing into the Crowd (AV/Inj before and if not injured then Inj again). Or change it completly: make it only AV/Inj Roll with a +2 Mod to AV roll. Spp awarded. Why should Norse/Darkelve suffer from having Frenzy?

Well that's certainly a start. And I agree about the Frenzy bit, they've weakened it so much in LRB that there should be SOME reason for taking it. Now it sucks AND its a trait.

Robotorz wrote: Do you even callculate the fact in that you can get the reff and have a handicap Table Result that lets you foul as often as you want per Turn? Under this point of view this makes it even more hilarious...

Actually my experience is that when you get those events (or going back to 3rd ed, the cards Grudge Match and Get the Ref) so that you can foul all you want, the coach who gets those invariably loses because they think too much about fouling and not enough about winning. And once again those are clearly the minority of cases.

The fact of the matter is that there wasn't a problem with it in 3rd ed that I saw (giving spp for fouling cas) and any problem there could have been has been mitigated by such things as the weakening of the DP and MB skills, and the introduction of IGMEOY. There is simply no reason to stunt the growth of these players.

The fun of the game (well one major aspect of it anyway) is building up teams and players with cool skills and abilities, so you can watch them grow and change and so on...much like an rpg character. you take some slapass hick farmboy and turn him into a major hero who saved the town from rampaging whatevers.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri May 09, 2003 7:15 pm

wesleytj: I understand what you are saying, but really disagree. If SPP's were gained for fouling, then fouling would be much more common. I really don't want to return to 3rd edition, when you had to look to set up the blitz and the foul every turn just to stay competitive. I like the game balance now, where DP is an optional skill and not effectively mandatory for a team.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri May 09, 2003 7:17 pm

Skummy wrote:wesleytj: I understand what you are saying, but really disagree. If SPP's were gained for fouling, then fouling would be much more common. I really don't want to return to 3rd edition, when you had to look to set up the blitz and the foul every turn just to stay competitive. I like the game balance now, where DP is an optional skill and not effectively mandatory for a team.

I think with IGMEOY and the reduction of power in the fouling skills it will never be like 3rd ed again. besides, if your opponent does that, you now have a choice. retaliate, or let him get his whole team ejected!

fouling might be a little more common, but not a lot, and not like it was...unless both you and your opponent want it to be.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri May 09, 2003 7:21 pm

Wes: Sadly, I have to disagree. We have a coach in our league with 3 Dirty Players on his Undead team, and he plans on getting it as his first skill for every Zombie. Playing against him is a time warp back to 3rd ed, and while the IGEMOY rules help, he does quite well with this strategy.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri May 09, 2003 7:25 pm

Skummy wrote:Wes: Sadly, I have to disagree. We have a coach in our league with 3 Dirty Players on his Undead team, and he plans on getting it as his first skill for every Zombie. Playing against him is a time warp back to 3rd ed, and while the IGEMOY rules help, he does quite well with this strategy.

well, the point is that he's doing this with or without spps...

also, undead can be a major exception to the rule because they have enough cheap players that they don't care if they get ejected or not, and they all regen so retaliation isn't much of a threat either.

i guess what it all boils down to is, like i said, he's doing it anyway. some bb coaches really get into that aspect of the game. the point though is that it's not the super winning strategy it used to be. he can still do it, spps or not, but it usually won't pay off for him.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat May 10, 2003 4:14 am

Wesleytj, you're obviously not going to convince the other 90% of the coaches. When i know i can't win, i back off. I think it's time for you to consider doing the same on this topic.

Talafar · Post by **Talafar** » Sat May 10, 2003 10:05 pm

FINALLY!
I just finished reading the whole of this thread. 17 pages, but very interesting.
Anyway my opinion...

Do NOT award SPP for fouling. Forget it. No way. Please don't. Not a good idea. Nope. It messes up the game.

At the local GW league, they DO give SPP for fouling (and crowd injuries for that matter). One of the players loves fouling. I played him fairly recently, and realised why SPP are not given for fouling. After maybe 5-6 games his team was something like:

Troll w/ Piling on
Chaos Dwarf w/ Guard
Chaos Dwarf w/ Guard
Chaos Dwarf w/ Piling on
Chaos Dwarf w/ Piling on
Chaos Dwarf w/ Mighty blow
Chaos Dwarf w/ Mighty blow
Hobgoblin w/ Dirty player
Hobgoblin w/ Dirty player, Block
Hobgoblin w/ Sure hands
Hobgoblin w/ Block
Hobgoblin w/ Chainsaw, Block
Hobgoblin w/ Bombs
1-2 Unskilled Hobgoblins.

Quite an incredible team eh? He averages 5 Casualties per match, and has managed 7 against Dwarfs.

I have played him twice. First time was a league game and I got fouled by EVERYONE. Dirty players, Chaos Dwarfs, even the troll! The sending off dice was good though and I got something like 4 '6's and so removed the threat of the Dirty players (and troll). Even so I played the second half with 5 elves, and while I got a ridiculous touchdown to give me victory, I went into my next (critical) game with 9 players. I lost...

Game 2 against the Chaos Dwarfs was a friendly, and thank god for that. This time I didn't roll well for sending off, and by turn 14 I was forced to concede due to lack of players.

Well I know this is quite an exceptional team the player has, but it shows how excessive fouling can rapidly accelerate a teams development, and make playing them akin to an execution.
And even without SPP's fouling is still very effective. My non GW-league team has a dirty player, and his mere precence puts people off piling on, or sending experienced Gutter runners/skinks into my half of the pitch. I only foul a few times a game, but it does its job. Seriously injuring a krox on turn 4 makes the beatdown a LOT less for the rest of the game.

Well thats what I think anyway...

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun May 11, 2003 4:59 am

Were you fouling back? If so, why? If he's a fouler, make him foul on 4+.