Which Dark Elf Team List? (new post)

[Thadrin]

You want to leave them as they are? hey - fine with me. The only change I ever thought would be a good idea would be switching pass for sure hands on the thrower and renaming him runner. I think that emphasises the running game that DE are supposed to like a bit better.

Any other changes are really in the "could care less" line.

[Robotorz]

High Elves would not be played if they wouldnt have 4 strength 3 Runners and their Blitzers wouldnt have St acces (to give them Guard or whatever)

I dont like ST acces on Elves at all tho. Same with Mighty Blow? I realy dont get the Idea of creating a bashy team with Ag 4? Do you realy want to take all disadvantages of the Elves? Elves can still score in 2 Turns with out big problems even if totaly outnumbered...

Remove Mighty Blow and Block from the Blitzers (and St acces as well) and give them frenzy and/or dauntless. This equals 4 Players with frenzy and this is in my opionion a lot more WFB Fluff than all the version posted here...


And Assasins? Why not but then limit the use of Special Weapons on them (and not line-elves) or something...

[Khail]

Honestly I'd say keep them as they are except the thrower. Drop Pass and access to Passing skills, give him Sure Hands and +1 Move. Call him a Runner and be done with it.

Having played a DE team with a signifigant amount of guard (until they all died or were sacraficed to Khain for failing one to many dodges), I can say that elves with str skill access is a Bad Thing (tm).

[Robotorz]

My suggestion would be something like this:

Code: Select all

Qty Name        M   St  Ag  Av
0-12  Lineelf 6   3   4   8                                    70k
0-2 Witchelf  7 3   4   7   Dodge, Jump Up, Frenzy  110k
0-2 Blitzer 7   3   4   7   Frenzy                       100k
0-2(4?) Runner  8  3   4   7   Sure Hands                  100k

Skill Allowance:
All General and Agility

Possible Changes:
Blitzers with Dauntless instead of Frenzy
and if you think this is good then maybe:
Runners with Frenzy and not Sure Hands (and then only 2 and Mv 7)

[Skummy]

Having played a DE team with a signifigant amount of guard (until they all died or were sacraficed to Khain for failing one to many dodges), I can say that elves with str skill access is a Bad Thing (tm).

Having played against your DE team with a significant amount of guard is the main reason I dislike the whole Elf access to strength idea. It makes getting two die hits on the ballcarrier extremely difficult, and offence is easy enough already for Elves.

[Colin]

Honestly I'd say keep them as they are except the thrower. Drop Pass and access to Passing skills, give him Sure Hands and +1 Move. Call him a Runner and be done with it.

I see nothing wrong with this suggestion. I think the whole 'replace the thrower with a runner' agruement has a lot of merit, unfortunately since there is already a thrower mini made, I don't see this change ever takning place unless the DE minis are redone sometime in the future.

[Snew]

It's not a thrower mini. It really is a runner mini in a thrower stance. I can't believe you didn't see that.

[wesleytj]

Honestly I'd say keep them as they are except the thrower. Drop Pass and access to Passing skills, give him Sure Hands and +1 Move. Call him a Runner and be done with it.

I see nothing wrong with this suggestion. I think the whole 'replace the thrower with a runner' agruement has a lot of merit, unfortunately since there is already a thrower mini made, I don't see this change ever takning place unless the DE minis are redone sometime in the future.

does anybody really think dark elves are a broken race right now? I don't. I think most people may in fact think they are among the weaker races of the main competitive ones. so why are we talking about weakening them to this degree?! That runner you're suggesting would be a MAJOR step backwards in dark elf playing ability. If you really don't like them having throwers because of the one paragraph of fluff that says they prefer running, fine. But give them something back.

I think that's silly, though, because in that same fluff, it says they run more not because they CAN'T pass, but because they are just mean. Sounds to me like they can do it but just don't as much, which is already true because they don't have 4 ma8, st3 catchers, and of course that infamous extra 10k for their throwers. so they play the shorter passing game with blitzers as runner/recievers...much like the orc running game but with more finesse.

[Munkey]

As far as I can see no one is suggesting that there is anything wrong, balance wise with the Dark Elves, just looking for a way to differentiate them a bit more from the other elf teams.

I honestly can't see that changing Pass to Sure Hands on the thrower is a huge downgrade, maybe losing passing skill access might be but personally I wouldn't support that.

If he were to lose passing access then his price would have to be lowered to compensate.

[wesleytj]

Everyone else also has to roll doubles to get dauntless now, so they didn't get weaker compared to the other players.

Wrong. Dauntless is a more important skill for a witch elf than just about every player. so it hurt them more than most. black orcs can't get dauntless anymore. you think they care?

With your line of thinking, all players in the game were made weaker, because many skills were brought down in power. But you have to think about this in a relative manner. Did witch elves get better or stronger compared to the other players in the game? Definitely stronger.

Yes, and I don't like that all players in the game have been made weaker, but that's a different discussion for a different topic. But I disgree with the point you are making as well. I don't think witch elves have gotten stronger compared to the rest of the players either, even given the weaker play environment. See above reason. And Frenzy is MUCH weaker than it was. I never waste a doubles on it now..there are only a few players it's actually worth a doubles roll for now, mummies and saurus i think are pretty much it...certainly not elves.

Frenzy is still good enough that many players hope for a double to get it, but unless they get that double, they'll never have it.

Maybe in your league. In our league it's mainly ignored. I think this is another case where they over-corrected, like with fouling. They applied multiple rule changes to something at once to weaken it, and have now made it so weak that no one bothers.

And even if they do roll that double, it will mean one less trait they'll be able to have by using up the double for frenzy. Even if witch elves didn't start with frenzy and were merely allowed to take it without rolling a double (while other players couldn't), that would still make them better. But it's even better than that: they start with it!.

The whole point of having witch elves with frenzy is so that, if you carefully set up a chain of assists, you could push people out of bounds from 3 or 4 squares away. Can't do that anymore. They're weaker. Yay they start with frenzy...ONE extra block. Impress me.

Of course, at 0 SPPs, witch elves are now weaker than they were, because their starting skills got weaker. But at 6 SPPs and above, they got better relatively to any blitzers in the game, or anyone else who starts with block (because they can't have frenzy by 6 SPPs anymore, while witch elves are sure to have it). By 16 SPPs, they're relatively improved compared to any player in the game who only has access to general skills, because those players would have taken block and frenzy before, but can't anymore, while witch elves still can and do.

I think the crux of our disagreement is the importance we place on frenzy now. You seem to think it's this great thing. I've played with it...I think it sucks. Having frenzy is not some big advantage you're making it out to be...especially since, as I said, they have to roll doubles just to get dauntless too. Until that, the frenzy is often more of a liability than a benefit. Back in the day, Witch elves at 11spp (blk and dauntless) were actually almost as scary to play against as wardancers, in some ways scarier. Now they're not.

[Thadrin]

Pass for sure hands. One single change that does NOT weaken the team in the least, but makes the team a little more individual. If anything it strengthens it (SUre Hands is a better skill than Pass IMHO) - use that to justify the higher cost if you want.

[Sushé Wakka]

I'm wishing I never made the damn post. I just woke up all the elf haters, would do nothing but bitch and complain about elves, because they obviously can't play properly against them.

I'm sorry I disturbed you, but my hate agaisnt the elves has nothing to do with Blood Bowl. It started during my time as "The Lord of the Rings roleplaying game" games master. I couldn't stand that the Noldor elves were much better characters than the rest and a no-brainer choice: You chose to be a Noldo, and three quarter parts of your character were arleady made, taking the fun away from the character creation part.
And I don't have problems playing agaisnt elves. Sometimes I win, sometimes they win. But hey, any team can win any match on any given sunday. And when I face elves, I have the chance of busting their heads around the field while they run like the pansy cowards they are!

[wesleytj]

The problem isn't pass for sure hands. I've said in previous posts that that would be fine. In fact it makes no difference to me at all. Currently Sure Hands is the first skill I give to any elven thrower. If this change were made, I'd just give him pass first...voila! after one skill, same player. So you're right, that wouldn't have a big effect.

It's losing passing skills on them, without compensation, that bugs me. Several people have suggested that.

[Asperon Thorn]

I actually wouldn't mind Pass for SureHands, but keep Passing access on the runner. Otherwise it would be too difficult to get Dump Off, which is key to a Dark elf running offense. (Running the Option)

Code: Select all

Qty   Name      M   St  Ag  Av                                    Access
0-12  Lineelf   6   3   4   8                            70k        G,A
0-2   Witchelf  7   3   4   7   Dodge, Jump Up, Frenzy   110k       G,A
0-4   Blitzer   7   3   4   8   Block                    100k       G,A
0-2   Runner    6   3   4   8   Sure Hands               80k        G,A,P

I had always thought that the "infamous 10K" was for fluff, since they are suppose to like to run, but by swapping it for surehands, that would be a good excuse to put them back at the correct pricing. Other than that, don't touch the team. Str Access would only turn it into an Agile Human team, not to mention unbalance it. I would prefer my AG4 blodgers over Mightyblow, piling on, Guard, and Dauntless, anyday. All of which can be taken on doubles, and the STR traits would be just plain garbage on an elf team.

Asperon Thorn

[Asperon Thorn]

Or maybe even:

Code: Select all

Qty   Name      M   St  Ag  Av                                    Access 
0-2   Runner    7   3   4   7   Sure Hands               80k        G,A,P 

That gives them 8 MV 7 guys but still no possibility for one turners.