BBRC

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue May 20, 2003 8:52 am

Redfang nailed it. Make the Deathroller a suitable substitute etc. (We've been there too much lately. Youknow my views by now) - just leave the rest of the roster the hell alone.

Dark Lord (retired) · Tue May 20, 2003 10:10 am

Redfang wrote:I certainly don't agree with that, Gken1. Dwarfs can use extra speed, but they don't necessarily need it.

And extra Agility certainly should not be added to the Dwarf team either.

That's why I'd either support the Iron Breaker or the extra trollslayers ideas. They allow you to replace muscle (Ogre) with muscle.

Of course this entire discussion would be entirely unnecessary if the Deathroller was rewritten such that it could be a worthy replacement of an Ogre! (I think this is the best solution, incidentally I already have a painted deathroller )

I agree, and just making it cheaper is not a suitable replacement.

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue May 20, 2003 11:14 am

A working Death Roller is the way to go. Better than adding in extra players. My views on Big Guy,s and who should have them, had better be well known by now.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Tue May 20, 2003 11:16 am

Regarding Spikes.

I see that spikes could be a st trait, but I have one beef with that.

It should be like the other stats.
You can decrease in AV due to injury, like you can decrease in the other stats. But you can't increase it unless you (per now) have access to Physical abilities. That makes Av one of the most useful stats in itself, because the initial value of it can not be increased for most teams.

If something is to be done to change it, it should be a stat increase. It is obviously possible to train yourself to become tougher, and I belive an enviroment like the BB field would certainly make it belivable.

I belive it might upset game balance, if only teams with ST access can increase their armour. And teams with St access already have high AV, which is difficult to beat.

I belive quite strongly, that if something should be done, it has to be making it a Stat increase.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Tue May 20, 2003 11:20 am

Back onto the Deathroller; maybe making a usable deathroller should be a point on Galak's list as well (or the mentioning of this as another suggestion for replacing the ogre on the Dwarf roster)

R

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue May 20, 2003 11:22 am

Code: Select all

Roll a double 6 on your Star Player Roll, and select between +1 str or AV.

Simple fix.

And if you realy want to be nice to teams, allow them to swap out a +1 Agility increase for +1 AV.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Tue May 20, 2003 11:29 am

MistWraith wrote:
Code: Select all
Roll a double 6 on your Star Player Roll, and select between +1 str or AV.
Simple fix.

And if you realy want to be nice to teams, allow them to swap out a +1 Agility increase for +1 AV.

I think this would make it just as useless, because nobody at all would choose AV before ST. Unless htey had already incresed twice in ST before.

Some, player might chose AV before AG, but not many methinks. Only on a few players, like Troll Slayers, and players who have no intention whatsoever of using AG. As for MA, I think maybe many would choose AV before MA, but maybe not. That really depends on the player.

Personally, I would give a lino AV, before MA, but if it was a cathcer, it'd be MA.

Not saying I have a better suggestion, ther than making it a Stat increase.

Double 1 maybe?

2 = +AV
3-9 = Skills
10 = MA
11 = AG
12 = ST

Maybe even it should be
2= +AV
3= +MA
11 = +AG
12 = +ST

This makes the odds the same at least.

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue May 20, 2003 11:37 am

Forcing them to make the hard choice bettwen stat increases was the point. Elves for example, would be very tempted to get the extra AV instead of Agility. While a most players with a strength up will take that, somtimes you will want the extra AV instead.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Tue May 20, 2003 11:55 am

I don't know. A stat increase should be just that. Why force someone to choose like that. Besides, if you need to roll 2 to get it, it has the same chance as a st increase.

Just an opinion.

The main things is making it a stat increase. It shouldn't be restricted to players with access to ST traits only, nor restricted to those with access to physical only. (although I'd prefer it the way it is now, to allowing it as a ST trait)

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Tue May 20, 2003 4:56 pm

Again (I've said this on another thread) I'm fundamentally opposed to making AV increases any more widely available than they are now.
The whole point of aging was to increase player turnover..why on earth do we want rules that can effectively increase the longevity of certain key players..especially those that are more inclined to have higher AV in the first place?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue May 20, 2003 5:47 pm

good point

Post by **Dave** » Tue May 20, 2003 6:48 pm

Back to the ogre / deathroller.

I think the ogre should leave, and no player substitutions should be made for him. Perhaps a Deathroller BG (racial characteristic: In repair / Flat Tire / Got a screw loose??)
If the SW's would be less AG based (chainsaw) they could be a replacement as well, but not in the way they are now.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Tue May 20, 2003 7:06 pm

I'm with Deathwing about Spikes/toughness/whatever that is easily available and increases players AV. Sure it would be a cool thing to have, but in very long-term leagues those options will prove problematic.

Just think about those fumbbl players that have gained 7 skills already. Let's say one of them is Toughness. That player, in addition to having quite a selection of skills, many of which certainly will help the player survive longer, has seriously dropped the odds of injury or fatality happening.
Not good.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Tue May 20, 2003 8:35 pm

I have no trouble at all with that reasoning.

I'd prefer to have it as a possibility, (i.e a roll of 2 = +AV)
The odds are the same as getting +st, which has only happened to me 4 times during 8 years of Blood Bowl, well over 100 teams, and so forth. (Aye, I know I'm unlucky)
I got the magic helmet card more often then I got a ST increase.

Can anybody tell me, in all honesty, that if all the players they ever had with +st had +AV instead they would be better? Of course not. Th eon field value of +av isn't huge, as long as not every single player has it. And with 1/36 chance of getting it, it would do little more then add flavour. And anyway, if you roll a double 1, you would have to choose between +1AV or maybe dodge. I think dodge will avoid that players damage a hell of a lot more than a +1av will, long term. And be useful for other things as well.

How often do you see Skaven or Chaos choose Spikes over any other PA or other skill category? Not very often. Hardly ever. And every +AV roll would also be a double if you need a roll of 2 to get it.

So I think the argument that it would really upset player turnover rate is highly exaggerated.

BUT, if the argument that is upsets player turnover is a very valid one. Why on earth should only teams with ST access be allowed to get it, and that on any double they roll?

Now THAT has in my opinion a far greater potentional risk of hurting player turnover.

I was merely commenting my though on the Hot List for the October review.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue May 20, 2003 9:00 pm

Deathwing wrote:Again (I've said this on another thread) I'm fundamentally opposed to making AV increases any more widely available than they are now.
The whole point of aging was to increase player turnover..why on earth do we want rules that can effectively increase the longevity of certain key players..especially those that are more inclined to have higher AV in the first place?

I agree. You might want to check out Galak's suggestion on the new Hot List to change Spikes to "toughness" and make it a general or strength trait.