Which Dark Elf Team List? (new post)

[wesleytj]

i think that guy would need to be at least 90k. the extra ma makes him better than the current de thrower.

[Asperon Thorn]

Well. . .he loses an AV, for the MA. But if you go off the pricing of a Wood Elf thrower you would be correct. 90K would be more on the mark.

Asperon Thorn

[danwantsin2]

Why are people so put off by the thought of the "Runner" not having the access to pass skills.

Wes is of the opinion that just because they don't pass all the time doesn't mean they can't.

However, this remains true whether they have the pass skill access or not, their agility ensures it. They wouldn't have the access because no self respecting Runner would be caught dead trying to hone their passing skills at training, but their natural ability would still be evident.

Kinda like how the tactical write ups on Wood Elves suggest holding off buying a passer straight off as a line elf is quite adequate.

Cheers,

Dan.

[wesleytj]

Why are people so put off by the thought of the "Runner" not having the access to pass skills.

because taking away something without giving something else back weakens the team a lot, and dark elves don't need to be weaker.

However, this remains true whether they have the pass skill access or not, their agility ensures it.

To a degree...sure AG4 makes you an ok short-range passer...but in the long run, as teams get bigger and better, and elf team needs to be able to throw relatively long passes now and then as well.

They wouldn't have the access because no self respecting Runner would be caught dead trying to hone their passing skills at training, but their natural ability would still be evident.

I suggest you look up a Dwarf Runner's skill access sometime. And that's a DWARF.

Kinda like how the tactical write ups on Wood Elves suggest holding off buying a passer straight off as a line elf is quite adequate.

Yeah, I've written that myself several times. And I believe it to be true, EARLY in the team's development. I say to hold off on a thrower until the line elves get a skill or two each, not to never ever get one. taking that option away entirely makes the team MUCH weaker, which again is not something the dark elves need. That's why I'm against it.

As I said above, as the team gets bigger and better, and as the competition does as well (that whole tr thing), you need to be able to throw consistently. You are after all, and elf team....you know, moving the ball and scoring quickly? Early on in the team's development, all teams start out not doing what they do especially well, it's kinda expected that you'll screw up a little. But as you get good, you expect more from your team.

What I'm getting at is this: at tr 100, none of these changes would make a BIT of difference, since most ppl wouldn't start with a runner or thrower or whatever else anyway. But at tr 200, this would put a big hole in dark elf strategy, and weaken the team, and dark elves aren't a power team to start with.

[Asperon Thorn]

Why are people so put off by the thought of the "Runner" not having the access to pass skills.

Wes is of the opinion that just because they don't pass all the time doesn't mean they can't.

However, this remains true whether they have the pass skill access or not, their agility ensures it. They wouldn't have the access because no self respecting Runner would be caught dead trying to hone their passing skills at training, but their natural ability would still be evident.

Kinda like how the tactical write ups on Wood Elves suggest holding off buying a passer straight off as a line elf is quite adequate.

Even a running elf team, like Dark Elves, needs a honed passer to compete later, for insurance. Sure they are quick Agile, and can get blodge, but when they are up against a seasoned orc or Chaos team, they cannot expect to run up the sideline the entire game, attrition will wittle them down to very few elves.

Now with most elves, being lowered down to 4 or 5 players, is not so much a scoring inhabition, because of the thrower. The thrower just needs to find one guy deep, and toss it. Even with AG 4 a long bomb and long pass is difficult. So Accurate, strong Arm, safe throw all come into play in order to make it possible.

That is why Dark elf players would be put off. By taking away passing access you are keeping the same attrition rate as HE's, but lowering the scoring options.

I personnally would be set off by not having good access to dump off, something that AG 4 cannot compensate for. No amount of AG is going to let me move the ball in my opponents turn. Dump off is a really nice skill if you are using a running offense with Dark Elves.

Asperon Thorn

[Asperon Thorn]

Obviously, wesley and I were both typing frantically at the same time

Asperon Thorn

[wesleytj]

dump off is only good if you build your whole team around it. you have to give the dump-offer nerves of steel, and at least a potential reciever or two as well. Otherwise they'll just surround you with tackle zones before they hit you, and your dump off will be very tough.

but if you do build the team around it, it can be really annoying.

[danwantsin2]

So you would rather see a more hybrid (running/passing) team then a running team ?

[wesleytj]

yeah that'd be fine. i'd be ok with making the thrower into a runner, with sure hands instead of pass, as long as they still had access to passing skills...

that would give them more of the running feel, without screwing the team.

[MistWraith]

I would like to see a complete reworking of the team. I feel that they should rethink the entire roster. Some positions may stay the same, but some may be changed so that no resemblance to any other elf exists.

For example, do witch elves need to keep jump up? Perhaps they should get strength skills or mighty blow?

Do line elves need to be the same as the High Elf version?

How about some special rules for when they play against their hated rivals the High Elves. Something like during the first half the Dark elves get a free team re-roll, and during the second half the High elves get one.

Just because something has been the way it is, does not mean their is not room for improvement, or that we can not change it for the sake of variety.

Just some thing to think about.

[Asperon Thorn]

dump off is only good if you build your whole team around it.

NOS and Safe throw on the thrower, and it only really takes two guys, not the whole team. If you have two guys with NOS and one with Dump off you can make it pretty far. Positioning these guys so they can only get blitzed, you have, at the very least, more control over where the ball is going. If they have moved 6 guys around your passer, then you have more control over where the other team is going.

It may seem like theory, but these three players gave me a world of frustration in fumbbl, and I am not the only one that was taught a mighty lesson about dump off by these guys.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... r_id=60641
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... r_id=71447
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... r_id=58640

These 3 and 2 others were able to do some real work on me. Patiently dumping off when I blitzed (he was surrounded and so were his recievers)
until finally a bad die roll freed a guy up deep. Allowing for the pass.

I have to admit my own experiences were never quite as successful, but neither were they all failures.

Asperon Thorn

[edit]added wesley's quote so people would know what I was talking about. a lot of posts went in while I was typing.[/edit]

[wesleytj]

mistwraith, as long as BALANCE on all tr levels is maintained, and a sense of proper flavor is retained, I'm ok with that. I don't want special rules for when they play high elves though, the last thing bb needs is a bunch of special racial hatred and enmity rules, or some psychology crap. some of the rest of the things you mention could be ok though. but changing just for the sake of change is just as silly as resisting good changes.

My complaints about all of this all along haven't been about being against change for it's sake, it's about balance. that's the key to the whole bb game.