Chaos Dwarfs

[Grumbledook]

lol piling on is not a skill to give players whose biggest strength is guard

guard and mighty blow is enough

though you really want doubles to get that stand firm

[MistWraith]

Block, shure hands, and break tackle on bull centaurs.

Makes a good hobgoblin scoring backup.

Guard and mightyblow then stand firm on Chaos Dwarfs.

[grep-v]

Just another thought:

As I was surprised to find out that many of you consider CDs to be very good and successful for continous league play, maybe (no pun intended) most players out there don't know how to play AGAINST Chaos Dwarves. I read many facts about the strength of CDs and frankly said I knew them all before. But nobody compared these strengths to other teams.

For example compare them to an orc team, like I did before:

- Troll vs Ogre, a standoff.

- Hobgobs and Orc linemen are almost equivalent

- BCs are better than BOs (faster), but you have only 2 CDs instead of 4 BOs

- Dwarves and Orc blitzers are difficult to compare, but considering the fact that you may have 6 Dwarves but only 4 Blitzers, the MA and AG of the latter make this also a standoff

- Orcs have throwers and goblins

So from the player part you have pretty equivalent teams, with a slight advantage for the Orcs: 2 BC vs 2 BO, 6 CD vs (2 BO+4 blitzers), Hobgobs vs Lineorcs, BUT the additional skilled players for the Orcs.

But the tactics for both teams are pretty different. With CDs you have 2 good mobile players, some weak mobile players and 7 slow players. So the slow players tend to be fix points of the tactics whereas the BCs and Hobgobs see the most action. Later, with harder hitting opponents you are prone to use the BCs as blockers losing their main advantage: the speed.

With Orcs you have only five slow fix points (4 BO + Big Guy) but the blitzers because of their MA 6 and AG 3 are mobile enough to cover an entire half even in pairs. Also you have more and more resilient AG 3 players, so there are no weak spots in ball handling. And you may slow down or even hold up the opponents BCs with cheap and robust lineorcs again depriving him of his main advantage while yo match each of his Hobgobs with a blitzer.

I am staying with my statement: in tournaments of an early league CDs are among the best teams. In longer and countinouus league play they still aren't bad but sure enough not among the best anymore.

ciao

PS: Maybe my view of this subject isn't that common. But most players tend to use tactics which emphasizes the strengths of their team (IIRC there was a thread about it a few months ago). For me this is secondary, I tend to neutralize the strengths of the opponent teams and exploit their weaknesses. Using the strengths of my team isn't important for the "master plan", only for the means to realize it.

[grotemuis]

But the tactics for both teams are pretty different. With CDs you have 2 good mobile players, some weak mobile players and 7 slow players. So the slow players tend to be fix points of the tactics whereas the BCs and Hobgobs see the most action. Later, with harder hitting opponents you are prone to use the BCs as blockers losing their main advantage: the speed.

With Orcs you have only five slow fix points (4 BO + Big Guy) but the blitzers because of their MA 6 and AG 3 are mobile enough to cover an entire half even in pairs.

hobgobs are more than weakly mobile, like blitzers they have 6. The advantage of a chaos dwarf team are the added hobgob movement and the rock hard dwarfs.

[Grumbledook]

Maybe you don't know how to play against higher ranked teams ;]

[Snarlton Heston]

Grumble said:

"piling on is not a skill to give players whose biggest strength is guard --

guard and mighty blow is enough."

Let me clear my throat!

I SAY IT IS NEVER ENOUGH! I WILL NOT STOP UNTIL I HAVE RID THE WORLD OF ALL AGILITY PLAYERS! IT IS BETTER TO MAIM THAN KO; IT IS BETTER TO KILL THAN MAIM! KIL, I SAY! KILL!

Snarlton Heston
------------------

I will stop when they pry the brass knuckles from my cold dead hands!

[Darkson]

Lol!

Take a pill man

[Dave]

piling on is only suitable for any norse player when playing Amazon's. They should get it for free actually

[grep-v]

hobgobs are more than weakly mobile, like blitzers they have 6. The advantage of a chaos dwarf team are the added hobgob movement and the rock hard dwarfs.

Ok, I read that over and over again. Now compare them to orcs. What is your reasoning with this?
AV 9 is AV 9, for dwarves like for orcs. We were talking about higher ranked teams, so everybody has Block. This leaves the Thick Skull against MA6 and AG3 of orc blitzers or the ST 4 of BOs.

Likewise I may change your statement slightly to "The advantage of an orc team are the added blitzer movement and armor and the rock hard strong blockers."
So my question is: what is the strength in CDs which can't be matched ?
I failed to find such a strength in ANY team.

[Sushé Wakka]

You can buy two hobgoblins for the prize of a orc blitzer... And you still have spare money! The main advantage of Chaos Dwarves is that they have in the same roster the most skilled blockers in the game (Chaos Dwarf blockers), arguaby the best blitzers-ballcarriers-backfield safeties (Bull Centaurs) and the horribly cheap and horribly useful hobgoblins!
You are comparing point by point trying to show that chaos dwarves are bad. But the Chaos Dwarf team is much better than the sum of its parts.
And let's not forget their cheap rerolls, too.

[Dave]

agreed. You should not compare them 'head to head' but on their in team role. Hobbo's are really good in their team, and that's before their price comes in

[lightingbug]

I'm loving the CD's Have only played only 1 "real" game with them (i.e against an opp.) practice games against myself were pretty good too.

Won my first game with them against an Ogre team, 1-0, with me getting my 1 CAS on a 2d defender choice blitz (my blitz) He only made 2 CAS against me. the whole game was just a grind. no score in the first half the Orges had the ball ball control for 6 turns in the first half. I received in the second and didn't score until turn 6 then we just beat up on each other until the end of the game since I stopped him for being able to throw a gobbo.

I was able to control the game for the majority of it. I ususally play Dark Elves and this CD team is allowing me to try something new. Get a bit of agility play that I use for the elves and a whole lot of bashing with the CD Blockers so I get to play wtih the strength part of the game

I am having a lot of fun playing the Chaos Dwarves. Talk to me though after I lose a game and a few players.

[grep-v]

You can buy two hobgoblins for the prize of a orc blitzer... And you still have spare money! The main advantage of Chaos Dwarves is that they have in the same roster the most skilled blockers in the game (Chaos Dwarf blockers), arguaby the best blitzers-ballcarriers-backfield safeties (Bull Centaurs) and the horribly cheap and horribly useful hobgoblins!

Ok, I read that again and again. And just to make it clear once more. I do not doubt these points seriously even if you are exaggerating a bit.
Concerning the most skilled blockers: they are in the bgeinning. Later on ST 4 is very useful and the difference to other blocking players shrinks.
Concerning the BCs: they are indeed very good so when playing against them you have to cut down their advantages which can also be done. (Again: I posted it before)

You are comparing point by point trying to show that chaos dwarves are bad.

I don't, just read a few posts before. I just stated, that everything on a CD Team can be matched, an I showed this for the comparison Orcs vs. Chaos Dwarves. That doesn't make them bad, just not overpowered. I also stated that in a long league they are not the best choice, but still far away from the worst. They are simply mediocre, like most teams are, and even the best teams aren't beating them all the time, but maybe 60:40 or 55:45, like they do with other teams too.

But the Chaos Dwarf team is much better than the sum of its parts.
And let's not forget their cheap rerolls, too.

Got no problem with this. But same goes for Orcs, Lizards, Wood elves, and so on. So: no "advantage" for CDs.

[Tackledummy]

I hate Chaos Dwarves, I especially hate Bull Centaurs. They kill me far too much. I really just don't like them.

[Dave]

If you can't beat them...