Negative Traits, how can they be improved.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue May 27, 2003 1:36 am

yer i don't think they should have the treeman

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue May 27, 2003 11:25 am

MistWraith wrote:So you are saying that teams like orc's need their big guy to be competitive?

Did teams need their big guy's before they added the rules for rookie big guys?

Before they added rules for big guys, orcs had access to 4 Morgs, 4 Varags, 4 Ripper, and 4 of every goblin secret weapon. High elves had access to 4 Prince Moron! Who do you think got left out in the process?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue May 27, 2003 11:28 am

thats also a good point zombie

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue May 27, 2003 11:42 am

I still think the best thing to do with big guys would be that they cost you a position slot...

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue May 27, 2003 11:51 am

I do not recall ever being able to take multiple Star Players on a team. But, maybe that was only a local convention or my memory is faulty.

Nerveless, my point that the ors do not need a big guy to be very competitive stands. The same can be said for all the other teams with Big Guys. Why should these favored teams be given them? What makes them worthy of having them, and not the others? Why were they the randomly selected ones to get big guys?

Also, everything I said about Treemen and Wood Elves can be applied to Skaven and Rat Ogers. The only thing keeping people from complaining as much about them, is the fact that a Rat Oger is a Wild Animal (the only truly negative enough trait). So it is not just the woodies, that should lose their Big Guy if you are going to start taking them away from more teams.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue May 27, 2003 12:03 pm

The same applies to woodies. They've got the only big guy with two truly negative traits (take root and MA2). That makes him one of the worst big guys around.

And you haven't answered my orc vs high elf point. Even if you house ruled only one copy of each big guy, that's still 7 good star players for orcs, and one sucky star player for high elves. The point is still valid under such a house rule. Meanwhile, woodies already had Deeproot and skaven already had Headsplitter.

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue May 27, 2003 12:21 pm

What point? That the orcs were just as good if not better back then? Or, that the team with the crappiest star player was disadvantaged?

The point I was trying to make, was that Orcs (or any other team like them) do not need their big guy to be very competitive. They have never needed the extra advantage over teams without. They probably never will. But, for some random reason, were given an extra advantage. One that is not paid for, in any significant way, in disadvantages. So we end up with a Big Guy arms race.

The original point of this thread was to make Negative Traits so negative that Big Guys would stop being an automatic choice(if you get the randomly distributed privilege of having them). Do you think this is a good thing to do. Or, do you think that the current very mild Negatives, and randomly determined distribution of who get the privilege of taking a big guy, is the way to go.

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue May 27, 2003 12:28 pm

Zombie wrote: They've got the only big guy with two truly negative traits (take root and MA2). That makes him one of the worst big guys around.

Actually, I think they are one of the best Big Guys around, when you consider their function in the team. At str6 AV 10, they are the toughest of the big guys. Throw in stand firm and their cheap cost (less than a wardancer, and the second cheapest of the big guys), and you have a very good Big Guy. One that excels in its job (holding the line so more elves don't get hurt). He is in fact the only Big Guy, I would consider taking over the oger, if I played a team that allowed both choices.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue May 27, 2003 12:29 pm

gees have you read the posts i have made, i don't get that impression, just cause i don't think all the teams should get a big guy doesn't mean i think the current system is the way to go, don't know where you got that idea from

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue May 27, 2003 12:45 pm

My original point was the sufficiently nerf all the big guys by making the negative traits very negative. After making every coach think twice about taking one.

We could then happily end the random distribution of big guys, by giving one to each team. If they do not add anything to the teams (due to really negative traits), then no balance issues are brought up. Then it is only a case of finding fluff to justify the choice.

With some teams already getting exclusive use of certain big guys (skaven, lizardmen, and wood elves) it should be no problem to come up with more like that for each team.

So step one: Make big guys not a no-brainier choice.
Step two: work on ending the random distribution of who get big guys.
Step three: Make fun Racial big guys that enhance each teams strengths while keeping their weaknesses, and not overpowering any team.

Step four: Play JJ at the Chaos Cup in Chicago this summer, then browbeat him for stupid cyber-elves comments made in england.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Tue May 27, 2003 12:53 pm

MistWraith wrote:So step one: Make big guys not a no-brainier choice.
Step two: work on ending the random distribution of who get big guys.
Step three: Make fun Racial big guys that enhance each teams strengths while keeping their weaknesses, and not overpowering any team.

I agree with step 1 but do not see the need for steps 2 & 3.

Big guys can be made to not be a no brainer choice without the need to include them on all teams.

By being made more specific (eg less Ogres) they can be made to fit more with the playing styles of the teams they do play for and so better balanced.

This does not mean that all teams should get one, by definition Big Guys are strong and stupid, not something I want to see on any Elf teams in a hurry.

Post by **Dave** » Tue May 27, 2003 5:57 pm

I agree with munkey here.

Some BG's need a little revising, then the acces should be looked at, what does the fluff / gameplay ask of what big guy where. No BG for each team pleeeese.

Gorblitz!! · Post by **Gorblitz!!** » Wed May 28, 2003 1:28 am

I think the only thing that needs to be done is to change the access. Especially the Ogres! Their list of allied teams is ridiculous. Minos need to be snipped a bit. There really should change the RO to a minimum of 1 on every single skaven team because it would be a jaw dropper if any rat team shows up ever without one. Seriously, they need to change the availability of the RO's. TM and Trolls are OK.

Also change every Big guy to AG 1 across the board. If you wanna slight ham-stringing of the BG's, make em all butterfingers. Ogres are too intent on carnage and cant handle the fiddly ball. RO's -n- Minos are too frothing to care. Trolls and TMen are 1's already. These guys were made to smash not run the ball.

I dont think that the negi-traits need intensifying. Find tastier solutions. AG1 on all the precious "I cant live without em'" Ogres would shrivle the jimmys of quite a few BBowlers out ther.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed May 28, 2003 2:38 am

MistWraith wrote:The point I was trying to make, was that Orcs (or any other team like them) do not need their big guy to be very competitive. They have never needed the extra advantage over teams without. They probably never will. But, for some random reason, were given an extra advantage. One that is not paid for, in any significant way, in disadvantages. So we end up with a Big Guy arms race.

How about AG4? That's not good enough for you? AG4 is the best thing there is in all of Blood Bowl, even better than ST4. And since i know you will tell me "but wood elves have AG4 and still have a big guy", let me tell you that their AV7 makes them much less good than high elves or dark elves. AV8 is much more important than MA7.

Amazons all have dodge, and soon all have blodge. That's a pretty good reason as to why they don't need a big guy! And undeads already have 2 ST5 mummies without any negative traits.

Also, remember that all the old teams that didn't get a big guy got two extra positional players to compensate. If anything, it's the teams that did get a big guy that got the shaft. They lost permanent abusive star players, didn't get any extra positional players and got some crappy big guys with negative skills.

I'm telling you, it's all fair the way it is now. Not all teams have throwers. Does that make the game unbalanced? No. The same is true for big guys.

Edit: stupid typos.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed May 28, 2003 2:42 am

MistWraith wrote:We could then happily end the random distribution of big guys, by giving one to each team.

And that is exactly what we want to avoid! Do you think it would be more fun if all teams had throwers? Then why do you feel that way about big guys? It's just another option that some teams have and other teams don't, like everything else (AG4, ST4, throwers, catchers, mutations, you name it).

Nothing in the game is available to all teams (not even linemen, think lizardmen). Why should it be different for big guys? Unless you want to make the game a dull fest.

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Negative Traits, how can they be improved.

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