Last Pass at (or for) the Dark Elfs

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Sat May 31, 2003 5:00 pm

Given the amount of discussion in this area and the fact that no one can agree on the exact nature of the change I don't think the Dark Elves will ever be changed.

That said I agree with Plasmoid that if you want a running DE team then passing skill access has to go, but ...

How about if the Thrower is made a runner but keeps pass. No additional passing skill access for the long range game but gives the team a good run/pass style.

As for ST skills I would like to see them playtested, I like the idea but only if it cannot be abused.

Goes without saying that any changes made like this to a balanced team should be well tested to ensure balance.

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Sat May 31, 2003 9:44 pm

Grumbledook wrote:um wood elves have been the same since forever

darkelves didn't get a big guy never had one and got 2 extra blitzers

the reason the woodies didn't get any extra players was cause they used to get deeproot but now they get a treeman

Dark Elves used to have a Minotaur (and a free re-roll

). When the rules for rookie Big Guys came out, Wood Elves got a treeman.

Still, none of this explaines why they get 8 positional players and a big guy. Maybe the High elves, Dark Elves, And Amazons need to get two more positional players.

Post by **Thadrin** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 7:01 am

wesleytj wrote: The nerfing of the Frenzy trait has made witch elves a lot less scary.

It also makes them, and Dwarf Slayers MUCH easier to play with.

sixpack595 wrote: except Witch Elves still suck

and what are you basing THAT piece of crap statement on? Wood Elves are one of the best teams in the game - if not THE best.

Dark Elves: I support ONE change and ONLY one change. Sure hands for Pass on the thrower. He can now become a runner by taking Block, Dodge, Sidestep, Catch etc. or he can become a thrower taking all the usual stuff. The ONLY change is that if you want a pure runner you don't have to take the essential ball carrier skill. No other changes are needed.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:31 am

Thadrin wrote:
sixpack595 wrote: except Witch Elves still suck

and what are you basing THAT piece of crap statement on? Wood Elves are one of the best teams in the game - if not THE best.

Probably the one where he said Witch Elves, not Wood Elves?

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:44 am

Hi Wesleytj and everyone else,
I don't know about the other proponents' reason for wanting to change the darkies, but as for me, you've actually missed the mark with your 3 points.

We've used dark elves with ST skills but no PA skills for 3 years around these parts. So naturally, our changing them has nothing to do with the 4th elf team or toned down frenzy. The line fluff wasn't the reason for the change, it just indicated which change to make.

Our reason was pretty straightforward: What we like about blood bowl is that each team presents the coach with unique advantages and challenges. I hope we never reach 40 official teams. I prefer fewer teams, just as long as these teams are different to play.

To us, the dark elf and high elf teams just seemed too d*mn similar, roleplaying aside. So, we wanted to make a change, and decided that an AG4 team without a full blown passing game would be interesting.

Our playtest shows that the team has not been killed off, but remains a strong side under these rules.

Martin

Post by **Dave** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:49 am

Welfs got that free reroll too, andlost it again, just like Delfs and Helfs. They kept the tree where the others for more positional players...

Post by **Thadrin** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 11:01 am

Darkson wrote:
Thadrin wrote:
sixpack595 wrote: except Witch Elves still suck

and what are you basing THAT piece of crap statement on? Wood Elves are one of the best teams in the game - if not THE best.
Probably the one where he said Witch Elves, not Wood Elves?

Gah. Sorry. Read wood elves. My bad. I still think he's wrong though. Witch Elves rock (especially once they get Block and Tackle).

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 3:08 pm

Thadrin wrote: Gah. Sorry. Read wood elves. My bad. I still think he's wrong though. Witch Elves rock (especially once they get Block and Tackle).

Yeah, they're still ok. But what I'm saying is they're a lot weaker than they used to be. You took me out of context.

The context of what I was saying was that with Frenzy becoming weaker, witch elves became a lot less scary, and that reduced the "evil" flavor of the team. Now witch elves can be a problem if coached properly, but they're not going to really scare anybody like they used to.

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 11:19 pm

Dave wrote:Welfs got that free reroll too, andlost it again, just like Delfs and Helfs. They kept the tree where the others for more positional players...

But they already had more positional players to start with.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:25 am

Giving the Witch Elves ST Access sounds abusive. I mean all you would ever want for those guys is Block & Piling on. This is already possible - but at least you need one Double to get piling on for a regular Witch Elf.

I think it would be interesting to let DE Blitzers Access Strength istead of Agility skills. I think of Guard & Mighty Blow on theese Guys. That would do the job of sharpening the profile of DE to "Hard", HE to "Medium" and WE to "Soft".

I think a new Player would fit DE:
0-1 Assasin 6|3|4|8 Dodge,Leap,Shadowing,Dirty Player GE,AG

Also, DE should get 1 free Secret Weapon under the new Rules.
(Which is the Poison Dagger that needs to have its Penalty Roll lowered to 9+)

Haar · Post by **Haar** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 4:56 pm

slup wrote:
Haar wrote:So since the bashy teams don't get any ag, and the ag teams don't get strength, and the general teams get everything, the game is balanced and all is harmonious. Don't toy with that capriciously.
Counterexample:
Orcs, necromantic and undead get both lots of strength- and agility-skills
Skaven gets both AG4 and strengt-skills and a big guy

Ah, but I think you could easily call undead and skaven general teams. Undead are balanced because only the (AG 1) mummies have high ST and ST skill access, and the ghouls (AG access) don't regenerate. Skaven have all access, even mutations, and their AG4 players have ST2, AV7. So yeah, there are teams that have access to every skill area, but no team that is all AG4 should have ST skill access.

Orcs are a bashy team. They don't have AG skill access, or an AG 4 player. Oh right, goblins. I forgot about the goblins. The addition of Goblins to the Orc roster, while within the fluff, made Orcs pushing unbalanced. But the downsides to stunty (no gen skill, +1 injury) almost overcome it. Still, though, it does bug me that you can have an entire 16 player orc roster with no line orcs.

I think one possible way to balance a DE team with ST skill access is to give ST access to a 6338 Block, Gen, ST player. While I find it difficult to argue with plasmoid, since he actually played in a league with the modified DE team, I think in a whole giving AG and ST skill access to the same player is trouble.

The pass/runner thing is six up, half a dozen down. I make a few of my blitzers into runners, one of the witches into a catcher (jump up is great there), and I have a lot of ways to move the ball without the long bomb.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:04 pm

If STR access is granted to DE blitzers, and even if AG access is taken away from them, I cannot, for the life of me, find a reason to play humans ever again. You get an entire team with AG 4, and Blitzers with STR access, and all you give up is weak MA8 catchers. Leave the STR away from elves, in general, and find another solution.

Asperon Thorn

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:09 pm

Humans have 4 Blitzers + 4 Catchers, Dark Elves have more like 6 Blitzers. The ST trade would make it 4 Blockers and 2 Blitzers. And Humans have a Ogre Big Guy.

In my opinion giving the DE blitzers ST instead of AG would make their passing game inferior to humans, let alone wood or high elves. You would have to develop Linemen to catchers.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:23 pm

Toby wrote:Humans have 4 Blitzers + 4 Catchers, Dark Elves have more like 6 Blitzers. The ST trade would make it 4 Blockers and 2 Blitzers. And Humans have a Ogre Big Guy.

In my opinion giving the DE blitzers ST instead of AG would make their passing game inferior to humans, let alone wood or high elves. You would have to develop Linemen to catchers.

With AG 4 across the board, a Blitzer, without AG access, and a Reroll is still better than a Human catcher. -1MA but +1STR. Not to mention the AG on the catch.

Still didn't give me a reason to take humans over DE's after the STR access change.

Asperon Thorn

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:11 pm

Hi Asperon,
he gave you a reason - you just didn't like it

I think that MA8 catchers and a big guy are pretty good reasons.
Oh, and passing skills. (The original suggestion was to remove those).

Doesn't make the human roster guaranteed better than the darkies.
But does make it different, and not guaranteed worse.
Martin