Ageing Suggestion

[Darkson]

Toby, aging was brought in to combat uber-teams, by promoting player turnover, while the winnings table was lowered to reduce the money in the game.

I know aging is perfect atm, but your suggestion will mean more money, and more SPP's leading to higher team ratings and potentially more uber-teams, and you can't see why I'm question it?

[Toby]

You are attached because its so hard to get him there.

Its really simple. Scorers can easiliy be retired. Just score 5 Touchdowns and you are back at 2 Skills. But Blockers have to hope for MVP's.

Undead can easily retire, because they never have to replace players, because of regenerate. Wood Elf cannot retire players at all. They have to replace the dead ones first.

More Money, More Starplayer Points, easier player reset and "restoration".
Make it easier to get to 16 but harder to 76. Thats my proposal. Before a player collects 76 he will have aged or suffered an injury that balances him or causes you to RESET him.

[Toby]

Darkson i do not have the über-teams in mind.
I think of Starplayer Points 0-16.

I dont want everybody to gain ALL Skills faster. Just the first 2 Skills, and specifically Blockers. On the other Hand, I want to see more retirements.

I want to give you a fair chance to get back the player you just lost, in reasonable time so the grief of retirement is lightened by the possibility of a double this time

[Darkson]

OK Toby, you win.

Tell JJ these are how it must be in the future.

I'm off to play Mordheim and Necromunda. (Unless you have plans for changng those rules to).

[Jerhod]

OK Toby, you win.

That seems a little bit harsh...

I disagree with the proposal as per my previous post, but I think that it was still worth considering.

[Toby]

Actually the Discussion got carried away...

The ageing thing is a sepperate issu from my opinion that player retirement should be encouraged by the measures described above;

On ageing, I think that it should handicap players, not render them useless, it should not be linked to starplayer points and it should effect players in a more balanced way.

I gave the example of the dwarf that can almost ignore ageing, while it ruins the human.

[Jerhod]

On ageing, I think that it should handicap players, not render them useless, it should not be linked to starplayer points and it should effect players in a more balanced way.

I agree; I think that the current system does a reasonable job of handicapping players, but it occurs too often for my taste. I think that your proposal was too severe to just be handicapping.

I gave the example of the dwarf that can almost ignore ageing, while it ruins the human.

I think that the current system, given the tendency of getting niggling injuries, means that aging often affects players more equally than not.

[Asperon Thorn]

Here's the thing. People that play Bloodbowl, and other games involving minitures they have to paint themselves, want to play a game that is balanced. They also want to work at it. They want thier characters/players to develop, yet earn it. They paint thier minitures with strong sense of pride, and they want the characters that the mini's represent to be the embodiment of that pride.

They do not want free handout's of spp's. They want a game that is fair to them and fair to thier mini's/characters. Aging was deemed unfair. A coach may have gone out of his way, to make sure that his lineman scored two touchdowns on his first game. He may have had other players danrerously throwing themselves at opponents so that he could get those touchdowns. And under the current Ageing system, you can be punished for taking that risk with a first game Age. That is where the problem lies.

It does not lie in what the aging results are (as the first post of this already too long thread suggests), just the fact that he did age.

But back to what I was saying, NO FREE HANDOUT's. You miss the point of retirement, completely, if you think that this will fix ageing. The point is to not only get rid of uber-players, but to also lower the total TR of teams. It is created to make the decision of retirement tough, not easy, tough. Under the Current rules, (earnings included) you can see some TR 250+ teams absolutely struggling, because they have 1-3 good players that completely inflate their TR, making it difficult for them to: earn money, replace players, and deal with the Handicap table. This is also where you have to make tough decisions. In order to keep the integrity of the team, you may have to retire a Healthy Legend player.

This is why people play Bloodbowl, in leagues. These tough managerial decisions, that should not be easy, that give you no immediate reward. The reward is long term, when you manage to pull a scrappy team back up to the top of the rankings.

Asperon Thorn

[Toby]

Im afraid I don't understand.

To me its a Strategy (Team Management) and Taktics (Blood Bowl) game.
The minis are nice and i admire people who have the skill to paint them, but thats only the eye candy and I consider painting a waste of playing time as well.

So to me its about the game. The game is fun as long as the teams are not to powerful. I think everybody agrees on this do far.

Now, how to prevent teams from becoming to powerful? Its all about the skills. Scoring Players are all lightly armoured, so they are supposed to be balanced by injuries.
But Blocking players, while improving slowly, once they are good there is hardly a reason to reset them because they do not suffer injuries. To my understanding thats where a game mechanic is needed to handicap players.

Im afraid i have no idea how to de-bungle the need for a handicap from starplayer points though...

[Asperon Thorn]

Im afraid I don't understand.

Sadly, I know.

I was trying to explain to the difference between a strategy game, and a hobby game. Bloodbowl, despite the incredible strategy element, is a hobby game. Why did it survive years of no official support? Because of Hobbyists. People like Galak and the non-GW members of the BBRC, that kept the game alive, and spread it around. Also, People that posted on the internet about miniture conversions and how they did it.

Darkson's comment about Mordheim and Necromunda, is an embodiment of communal frustration in that you don't understand the difference. Fresh ideas are ok, but every halfcocked whim could have repercussions down to what a halfling is allowed to eat for breakfast.

More on the topic, Free handout spp's is not what a hobbyist wants, it patronizes the amount of work they put into the team. It also does nothing but decrease the strategy element, by allowing teams that are powerful to stay powerful, or at least keep some element of the power they had. Why not just pay 50 thousand gold, and hire the Cloning wizard to whipe all injuries off the player? It would be ridiculous, and just mean that big teams stay big. Frustrating new players and old alike.

Asperon Thorn

[Toby]

What are you talking about man?

I said make it easier to get a replacement for a retired player.

That adds to fun. No matter is you paint your crap or not. It sucks when you have to play en eternity just to get a dead lineman back to block skill, because you need 10 games and a MVP.

Thats all i'm saying. And adding foul and push out cas is certainly not flooding spp.

[Asperon Thorn]

Award more Starplayer Points to make it easier to level (back) up (Throw Teammate, Fouls, Pushed of Pitch as a normal Block).

This is free handouts.

I said make it easier to get a replacement for a retired player.

And I say don't.

That adds to fun. No matter is you paint your crap or not. It sucks when you have to play en eternity just to get a dead lineman back to block skill, because you need 10 games and a MVP.

It takes away from both a)fun becuase you didn't really earn it, you just stepped on someone who was down, and b) strategy because you no longer have to come up with a way to get that lineman his first skill faster. i.e. I really need to get block on this Saurus, so I am going to cage him, and hand off to him 3 dozen times until he manages to hold on to the freakin' ball.

Thats all i'm saying. And adding foul and push out cas is certainly not flooding spp

And it is flooding the game with Spp's, all you will see is teams of dirty players stepping on people. It has already been proven. 3rd edition was plagued with an overabundance of dirty player.

[Toby]

Fouling has been adressed in anuber of aspects. right now its FAR from beeing as abusive as in 3rd.

However, you won. You stick with agebowl, while i play blood bowl. And I don't even consider it a hobby to paint stupid miniatures. I rather spent my time playing.

[Dafrenchcoach is Back !]

However, you won. You stick with agebowl, while i play blood bowl. And I don't even consider it a hobby to paint stupid miniatures. I rather spent my time playing.

In my all( short) life, I never see someone trying to make soooo much proposals (someone which seems good, anyway), and being soooo outside of a community.

I NEED to find where Toby is posting on Starcraft and Warcraft 3, so I will do the same ("OK guys, your starcraft is crap. What you need is a board game, and trying to paint some minis, just in order to have a social life" and other stuff . He, btw, it has been made sooo many years before Starcraft, and was called Full Metal Planete. A french game)

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Toby have you ever thought about starting small?

Maybe, just maybe, if one time you posted a very small change to a very small aspect of the game some people would agree with you.
But this massive overhaul you seem to be fixated on is never going to be supported and will never ever happen.

Move on...