general conclusion= Big guys+Piling On=Unbalanced

Post by **Dave** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:46 am

not to mention the AG4 Leap beastie

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 10:01 am

All he did in his first game with leap was being blitzed while holding te ball, going down and wisely stay so and avoid being hit again...

He'll learn though, I just hope to make one leap that has an important effect before somebody kills/injures/bounties him...

R

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:09 pm

This is exactly why I am sick of these assinine annual rules changes. Any change to PO makes it useless for str 3 guys. I'm not going to risk a foul because I *may* be able to break armor. But since I have it, I'm stuck with it even if they change it to something crappy. I have an idea, make some rules, and stick with them.

Darkson wrote:
Toby wrote: Bt does it get taken by ST3 players?
Hell yeah! Great skill for Norse Blitzers.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:12 pm

Sixpack: That statement seems a bit reactionary. There are several changes that would make Piling On plenty good for a 3 strength player, but it's obviously broken right now as it's written in the LRB. Delcaring after with a Mummy or a big guy is just too good.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:54 pm

I havent'read through all the Piling On threads, this one included. I don't have a problem with it, though. I understand the problems others have with it. Mummies, Big Guys, little drawback.

Make it a trait to reduce avaliability. I don't want to make it an exception to the rule of using a skill after the die roll. It's a simple mechanic and should apply across the board.

You might also have it cost a point of movement. The player is highly sprung, ready to drop at short notice. It wouldn't help the Big Guy problem but it would bring Mummies movement to 2, making it much harder for them to get up. 1 BG with PO isn't bad, 4 Mummies would be. I haven't had to face it yet.

Post by **Thadrin** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 7:15 pm

I just played Dwarfs against a Mino with Piling on, RSC, Block and Stand Firm.

Five caualties against, three by the Mino, later, Any doubts I ever had that POn needs serious looking at have vanished. Its almost automatic casualties having a player like that, and with someone who knows how to protect him from fouls there is NO way to stop it. Even standing an Ogre beside him didn't help. The ogre was stunned, leaving the mino to rampage away.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:20 pm

I haven't read any of this thread, but I have been against PO in its current state from the beginning. Any proof that it is too powerful can be found on fumbbl, purely by the sheer numbers of PO RSC Chaos Teams (yes entire teams are getting this duo, or PO and Mighty blow), and thier Mino Pets. These teams go off of the standard chaos maxim "Clear the Pitch, then find the ball." except that they can clear the pitch of dwarves in a matter of 2 or 3 turns. Orcs in the same amount of time, and elves much more quickly.

If PO was balanced, then you wouldn't see entire teams getting the skill. Right now some of those Chaos teams are picking up PO before they even get BLOCK! Simply becuase, while more risky, they can get thier second skill much faster than thier first with PO.

Asperon Thorn

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:35 pm

yeah thradrin...you've just experienced the same thing that changed my mind about piling on. Playing dwarves against back to back piling on teams I suffered 5 and 6 injuries. what good is av 9? dwarves are supposed to be tough because they got nothing else. I have since taken piling on a couple players just to keep up with the jones.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:42 pm

Elves should actually last longer than Dwarves or Orcs with the current Piling On rules, because they should have a chance to dodge away. PO is really just disgusting right now.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:06 pm

Skummy wrote:Elves should actually last longer than Dwarves or Orcs with the current Piling On rules, because they should have a chance to dodge away. PO is really just disgusting right now.

Here is the problem that elves have with it, they will win the game for sure, but are less likely to win any of thier next 6 matches. These PO teams are completely incapable of stopping an elf team from scoring, so elves will. Unfortunately, they will lose 3 elves everytime they do it. (Like Thadrin said, it is an auto casualty.)

After running up a 5-0 score the elves have lost 15 players. If they decide to refrain from scoring, games seem to go much worse. In one sense they are better off than the slower teams, but in another their line doesn't even stand a chance.

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:01 pm

We have to many traits right now, to make another skill into one. If the answer to every god skill was to make it a trait, then we would have almost no skills to chose from, and have to roll doubles to get anything. Also, this unfairly penalises teams/players that have to roll doubles to get it right now.

Sushé Wakka · Post by **Sushé Wakka** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:57 am

The problem is not piling on itself, but ST 5 players picking it up. Nobody had problems when my Norse Blitzers took piling on. Put piling on back before the roll will not stop ST 5 players choosing it. It will make St 3 players stop choosing it. So the problem we're facing is not that piling on is broken, but that there are too many St 5 players on he pitch.
Oh, and if the Chaos players are taking Pile on before block, my Norse linemen will gladly teach them how to block properly.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:08 am

Yes, why not just change PO to a fixed +3 on AV rolls and leave it as it is now (after the AV roll)?

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 11:34 am

Something needs to be done, for sure.

But if it is to become a trait, make it a general trait, so that not only those with St access can have it.

Making it a fixed +3av will make it a very bad skill compared with claw..

but it is too powerful when certain teams, stack up on it, and combine with MB/RSC

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 11:37 am

Because, that would be to easy and make to much sense.

A fixed 3+ is the best way for everyone. It is still better than the +1 or 2 other skills give you, but has a downside. Not to powerful, not to weak. Near perfect balance for all.